Interview #40 Nina Kolari: You don't need to be a programmer to build an app anymore.

Rick (00:02.548)

Hi everyone, I'm Rick Barron, your host, and welcome to my podcast, That's Life I Swear. My guest today is Nina Kalari. She is the host and creator of App Minded, a podcast for people building mobile apps with AI. 

So, here's a question. What if the only thing standing between you and building your big idea was a belief that you just couldn't do it? 

What if your next big idea didn't require a programmer to bring it to life? What if AI could help you turn imagination into reality? 

Well, after 17 years in digital marketing, Nina decided to tackle something entirely new. With no coding experience, she taught herself to build apps using AI. 

Later, she entered her first hackathon, competing against a wave of male developers in the room. Well, guess what? She won. Now, today, through App Minded, Nina helps others turn ideas into reality. 

Now her story reminds us that it's never too late to learn. Take a chance and surprise yourself with what you're capable of doing. So please join me as I have my conversation with Nina Kollari. Nina, welcome to the show.

Nina Kolari (01:28.504)

Thank you so much. That was quite an intro.

Rick (01:31.731)

Well deserved. Well deserved. I've been, you know, looking at your background after we had our first conversation and I thought, my gosh, she has done a lot. And it's remarkable. I think the journey that you'll share with the audience today is something that I think a lot of people need to hear because I think, you know, this conversation isn't just about artificial intelligence or building apps. It's about, you know, challenging assumptions, stepping outside your comfort zone and discovering what you're capable of when you stop putting limits on yourself. And I think you've proven that point. So if you would, for the audience, could you give us a little bit of a background of yourself and where you are today?

Nina Kolari (02:17.356)

Yeah, I'm originally from Finland, but for well over a decade now I've been traveling the world as a digital nomad and working remotely wherever I was. I left corporate because I wanted to travel more. And the only way I figured to do that was to become a freelancer.

So, while I was discovering the world, started working online, doing a little bit of everything, learning my way on different roles. I ended up doing quite a bit of digital marketing for various companies all over the world. Through that, I'm sorry. This is one of the blank, like where I'm going to go.

Rick (03:01.908)

That's okay.

Nina Kolari (03:05.75)

So, okay, a little bit of editing. I just continue from there. Yeah. And I've been doing that for quite a many years and last year I thought maybe I should look into something new and that has absolutely snowballed into a completely new career and places that I could have never imagined. It's been an absolutely wild year and I could have never imagined what that one decision could actually end up becoming what it is today.

Rick (03:38.57)

Well, that's quite a pivot in your life. Wow. Well, take me back to where this all began. I think you said you worked about seventeen years in the corporate environment. Where did you start, and how did you migrate to where you are today?

Nina Kolari (03:57.583)

I've been working with clients all over the world for quite some time and there was nothing wrong with the work or the clients but I felt like maybe I should be doing something. AI has become more and more and we hear more news stories. AI is going to disrupt many careers, so I started also asking, like, how is it going to impact me, and I started chatting with Claude and ChatGPT about what I should be doing, and we had quite a lengthy conversation on what I should be doing, could be doing.

Rick (04:34.346)

So, you actually spoke to Claude to ask that; that is very interesting. When you started that conversation, what were you expecting or hoping to hear? I mean, you diving into this world, you're actually you're talking to a computer, so to speak. I'll just kind of put it that way. What was your thought process as you were starting to enter your questions and then the answers you were getting? Was it something that when you first were receiving you thought, I'm not quite sure, but it thought, wait a minute, this is going somewhere.

Nina Kolari (05:09.696)

Yes, I've been- I took it whenever ChatGPT came around; I immediately really liked it, chatting with AI. And I've been using Cloud and ChatGPT quite some time. So, you could say that they knew me in some way. They knew my work because I was using both for work quite a bit. And I just genuinely started asking like if I wasn't doing what I'm doing now in the future, what could it be? I asked based on my background, what is a natural next step or some completely wild cards that I could have never thought of. And I just remained open to everything it was suggesting. And one of those things that came out was iOS development, building iPhone apps, which was one of the wild cards.

And I think to my surprise and everybody around me, I actually took up on that advice and started learning how to become an iOS developer.

Rick (06:15.762)

Wow, I know when I started using ChatGPT, Claude, I've even used, I think it's Perplexity, I think it is, that I learned that the answers you receive really depend upon how you style a prompt. And I learned that because, as I was just asking some questions, I thought, well, that wasn't the answer I thought I would get back. 

And then, as I was reading up on how you create a prompt, I thought, so I went back and then restyled my prompts. And then the information came back even more robust. So, you really have to put in the effort to learn not only what question you want to ask, but how you style that question, because whatever you feed in is what you're gonna get back, is my understanding. 

So, it's been very helpful. When you were looking at AI in the beginning, did you take the sense of, and then to your point, people were thinking, gosh, AI, and to a certain degree, there people are losing their jobs and all. Did you sense that if I don't get into this and start educating myself, I'll find out this is not as bad as I thought it was going to be? do you think you'd be where you are right now?

Nina Kolari (07:51.491)

No, I think AI is going to disrupt many careers and the more you know how to use it in your career will help you in the future. Unless you're doing something completely manual work where AI cannot take your role or some parts of your role, I think it's critical to know AI at some level in your current role, especially for knowledge workers. It's really important.

Rick (08:20.038)

Right, I guess what I find amazing about AI is the impact it is having on people's careers, their lives. Because, you know, sure, we had, like, the first computer for everybody, then we had the internet. But this is a whole new ball game and I think for some people, it's a little frightening.

And I know that I've spoken to other people such as yourself who have just dove into it. And I think it's one of those things where you just have to embrace it. And it could be at a point where, gosh, now I have to relearn something just to s to get back into the race, if you will. And I feel that's like it or not, that's where our life is today. And it is moving quite rapidly. And I think that's the part that frightens some people.

Have you ever come across people that you talk to, such as on your podcast, that share those similar feelings about AI and where this may take them, or not take them?

Nina Kolari (09:33.303)

In my podcast, I have people who have embraced AI and they've used AI to build an app. So they really are for AI and what it brings. But I have also come across a lot of negative feedback, like Why are you using AI and all the negative parts about AI are real, but it's also a technology that is not going anywhere. No matter how much we would like to get it disappear, it is just not.

I think embracing it, you don't have to become an AI engineer to do well with your career in the future with AI, but you need to understand how it can actually help. And there are many, many ways it can help and improve and actually allow you to do the work that you enjoy and let AI to do the work that you don't.

Rick (10:28.7)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, rather than taking a defeatist attitude, it's best to, well, let's see what's under the hood here. You know, maybe I'll look, and I'll realize, wait a minute, I can do this. Because I think today, people who are now in the workplace, I've heard many people who are still in the workplace tell or try to help others to embrace the use of AI, become the expert in a certain part of it, you know, because once you can telegraph how to utilize it, how to make it more productive, you become sort of the go-to person and your value goes up. 

So, I think that's where people yes, it'll be a struggle in the beginning, but if you don't embrace it, yeah, you'll probably be tossed out. I mean that's a harsh way to put it, but that's just the way it is. 

Now, I like to go into this hackathon story. I know you shared with me. And I think for the audience, I'll just kind of give a brief description where you signed up for it, and you walked into a room, and you just saw an ocean of male developers. And I think you maybe you were the only female or maybe there was a few of them. 

But when you first opened that door, and you saw all these people, what struck you right away as What did I get myself into? 

Nina Kolari (12:04.462)

Well, I almost turned around and walked out. I did. I was looking around and like, okay, I don't really look like anybody here. And usually, at hackathons, you do it with teams. So you form teams. And I saw all these guys like forming teams, and I was kind of sitting there like, well, nobody's talking to me. You know? So I thought, okay, I'm just going to do it myself because that is okay. And let these guys do whatever they do, and I'll just find myself a seat, and I went into a little corner, and doubtfully a lot of the men actually did not even know I existed until I walked into the demo my app, and I just decided to stick with it. It wasn't it was few hours I thought I'm gonna learn something I might as well stay here.

Rick (12:58.698)

So, I know I was part of a hackathon once. I was on our team; we ran the hackathon. It was truly amazing to see these people; AI wasn't even in the picture yet, but they're creating these software programs. But I was really enjoying watching the creativity of these people and the things that we're coming up with. So you participate in the hackathon, and then at the end you find out you won. And what did winning that hackathon- I mean, how did it change the way you saw yourself when you realized you did this?

Nina Kolari (13:46.123)

It completely transformed how I see myself and how I see this career. I initially, when I started studying iOS development, I gave myself four months to put good effort into and explore if this is a new career for me. And that deadline was about a month. Sorry, I'll start again. I joined the hackathon when I was approaching the fourth-month deadline to decide whether I think this is a career for me or not. And I joined that hackathon thinking I was just going to build an app and go home, and that's it. But since I heard that I won, it completely transformed not just me, but I think the men in the room- they were like, where did she come from? How did she build that app? And since that time, it really gave me the belief that I can do this. I don't have all the knowledge you need to build an app, but I have enough to keep going. And that really escalated my career and things that happened from that to the completely new level that I could not expect. That was genuinely one of the biggest moments in this journey.

Rick (15:12.426)

Sure. That must have been I wish I could have been there to see the look on your face when they announced your name. My gosh. So, I know when we first met one another we talked about you know your background, the hackathon, but then you got into the process about vibe coding. 

And I think, for the benefit of the audience, and including myself. Now I have done a little bit of investigating with this, but what really is vi coding in plain English? I mean, what is it? How does someone start learning this?

Nina Kolari (15:57.153)

It is actually what you say, it is coding with plain English or any other language for that matter. But instead of writing syntax and brackets and all that kind of things, you just tell AI, I would like to create a journaling app. Help me get it started. You can literally start with one sentence and get the AI to create the app.

It allows you to guide AI in plain English. I actually talk to my AI rather than type. So I have this at times lengthy yaps. I literally just talk to AI like I'm thinking this could be this is the feature we should have in the app. And then it kind of takes my yap into like, okay, this is how we're going to execute it in code. What do you think? Should we go ahead or not? And then I say either yes please, and then it starts coding it. Or I say, actually, now that I see it, I think we need to change a couple of things. And then I yap again and present it to the AI and it actually figures out my thinking and brings the technical solution into the table without me having to actually type everything.

Rick (17:09.908)

So, one doesn't really have to know anything about coding whatsoever. That you just start talking to it in plain English and it it speaks back to you. So when it speaks back to you though, is it giving you the context that you understand or are they kinda giving you some type of code talk per se?

Nina Kolari (17:31.691)

It can do both. I actually ask that AI usually to teach me at the same time. So if there's a new function, I ask it say, why are we doing this? So I questions his choices. But what you don't have to do that you can just create the app. I do recommend learning about how to build an app security and database and safety. But if you're just building an app for yourself you can literally just go and build it and not worry about the code at all.

Rick (18:06.546)

So, you're building the code; does it also provide you with the user interface of what that app would look like? Yes. So how do you put that into the picture, or do they do that for you?

Nina Kolari (18:14.914)

Yes, yeah, you can all. They can do completely for you or if you know a good website and you love how it looks and it just works for you, it's your style, you can just take a screenshot of that and give it to the AI tool and it's going to replicate that or take the best parts that you like. That's what I do. My phone is full of screenshots of apps that I think are really amazing, and I utilize them sometimes it's a font or just the layout and I give it to my AI tool like This is what I like; can we replicate it? And it actually does an amazing job at it.

Rick (18:56.682)

How many apps do you think you have created since you've been doing the vibe coding and on AI, approximately? I think

Nina Kolari (19:02.466)

I say 20 plus because I haven't counted. But I have, think 11 at the moment in the app store, but I also have web apps and I have probably about 20 or 30 half done apps in my computer that I never finished.

Rick (19:21.342)

So, with vibe coding, what would be the next level up from that to create something such as an application or even a software program per se?

Nina Kolari (19:38.147)

That is a very good question and I can't wait to see what happens in the next year. From the day that I started, it was kind of upcoming and it's changed so much to what it is today. I cannot wait what is actually in a year's time. Maybe everybody stopped buying software and everybody does their own custom solutions, which is already possible. If you really want to replace some of the tools that you're using, you can already do that yourself.

Rick (20:11.092)

That is remarkable. Well, I now you have a podcast. Can you kind of walk us through what was your thinking of wanting to pull this together? How did this come into play? And then also maybe provide s an example or two of what people who come to your website learn, cause yeah, I know you offer a program to help people learn such things as vibe coding. Can you provide some insight into that?

Nina Kolari (20:46.722)

Yeah, the podcast came about when I started this journey. I noticed that there aren't too many women in this space, especially visible women, women talking about the apps that they build, or, like, generally, this is a very male-dominated industry. And then when you go into app building, it's probably even more so.

And, but I was also surrounded by a lot of women building apps and it was like, we can't see those women in these as guests in this podcast that are existing. So not that I only interview women, but I make sure that I have mostly women as my guests in the podcast. And there's plenty of- I don't have a hard time finding guests because there are so many women building apps.

And the more women we get into this, the more women also come in and start building apps. So it's kind of twofold: me sharing my story to make sure other women also join the journey with me.

Rick (21:56.411)

Mm. So with the women that come in, learning how to do vibe coding and what have you, what have their backgrounds b been up to this point that now they're diving into wanting to do this? I mean, like I think like you said earlier, these are people who Yeah, they're embracing it, so they're diving into it. So what backgrounds do they come from?

Nina Kolari (22:24.238)

Mostly non-technical. They have expertise in completely something else. They might be a teacher or in finance or they be a stay at home mom. There's like the range is really broad. But they all had curiosity and they had a problem that they realized that maybe I could actually build a solution. One guest in my podcast got gifted three chickens and that's how she became an app developer, which is the wild story. But that's like women have many problems in their life, but the solutions are not currently being built. And now they can actually start building those solutions themselves.

Rick (23:12.798)

What have been, you know, without naming names, so to speak, but what have been some of the products you've seen being created when these people come into this course that maybe have surprised you, like, wow, there's a app I never would have thought of coming up with. What are some of the examples you've seen?

Nina Kolari (23:30.894)

Yeah, I've seen a few really cool ones where the patient, so you are in health crisis, you're going through something very difficult and in that point you realize I could really use some help. And I've seen them build an app that support that person going through that journey. I think those are phenomenal. But equally phenomenal is they at home mom who comes across the same thing over and over again and then decides, I'm actually gonna do something about this. And that goes ahead and builds an app for other stay at home moms so they don't have to go through the same thing.

Rick (24:16.756)

Well, now the the people who come to your program are are they basically and I think you maybe you've you kinda called this out, people who have no background at whatsoever in building an mobile app or even software understanding. They're coming in I'm about as a a rookie as you're gonna get. So I'm I'm come coming here for your guidance and I'm diving into it. So that usually the majority of the people that do show up?

Nina Kolari (24:48.878)

Yes, the majority are. I have few developers who then need my marketing expertise. So, I help both to ship or to build, but what happens after you build is the marketing part. Usually, the developers themselves can get it up and running, but they then face the issue with marketing, which is my background. So it's a bit of both, but different kind of helping, I think.

Rick (25:16.06)

Imagine the marketing's probably the I don't know, the hard part so to speak. I mean, it sounds like building this app is somewhat simple, but okay, we have the app. Now how do we get it out there? So when you have people who come in, have you ever had anyone saying, Look, I'm taking the stab at this, but do you ever notice people like they think they don't have the confidence to do this, but I'm gonna give it a shot anyway, and then they realize when they do create something, they're surprised that they even completed an application. I mean, c what are some of the stories that you've come across with people who have accomplished this and realize I can do this.

Nina Kolari (26:01.912)

Yeah, it is. It's almost the same as my story. And what I hear is people think they cannot do it because for years we've been told you cannot create an app unless you are a developer and have years of coding experience. But now, with the help of AI, a lot of people are suddenly realizing they can actually do it. 

And including me and all the others who are vibe coders and talk about it publicly and share the message that anybody can now build, it really does show that you can try this completely new area, build an app and actually make it work and get it to the audience and get it to the market. 

And I think the confidence boost on what I've experienced and I know in my podcast, my guests have that once they've actually shipped an app all the way to the App Store and they can say like, this is my app in my phone, that I made this, which I never thought I could, that that confidence actually spills into every other area in their life. That is one thing I hear all the time, how it spills across.

Rick (27:22.108)

So, when people come in to create these apps, are they coming in to hopefully monetize it once they have created it, or is it just like, I'm just gonna have it for my personal use only? I mean is is it a combination of both or how does that come out?

Nina Kolari (27:38.959)

It's a combination of both, I think. Some people are really determined to make money out of it. Some are just exploring. Maybe they're doing their first app and it's like, could I actually do that? That's the initial. It's like, can I get to the app store or published in the web? So it really depends. And I quite often say that.

Maybe in the first app you should not think about the money. Just create the app for yourself, get it out there and explore if this is something you actually like doing. And the simpler the app idea, the better. Because going through the process you learn so much more than just thinking about building an app.

Rick (28:27.998)

That's a good idea. So I kind of just take small steps at the beginning and then take that next step to where, okay, let's take what I have, let's expand it to what it could be, even more. But that's a good process to take and think because I think for many people who can never, you know, program per se, they won't feel so intimidated, even if they do fail, so to speak. And I think what I love about learning AI is that sometimes I'll come up with an idea as I'm creating something in my prompt, and the information comes back and I feel like, gosh, that's not what I was looking for. And I realize okay, I probably didn't ask or frame it correctly. And I go back to my whiteboard and rethink it. 

So, I guess what I'm getting at is that I would just tell people, don't be afraid to try this. And if you fail, guess what? You will probably learn more from your failures than your successes. Because you'll learn how to re-engineer something, think it out, and solve the problem. 

Cause you I think it's so helpful to understand that I think people are just wanting to get it out there quickly, and if they don't succeed, like, " I can't do this. No no no. Go back, rethink what happened. Why didn't it succeed? And just think it out. That's all you really have to do. Now, we were talking about your hackathon at the beginning, and you surprised me when we got on the line here that you won yet another one. Can you tell us about that? And congratulations again.

Nina Kolari (30:16.886)

I did. Yes. Thank you. Yes, I won my third hackathon recently. Lava Bull, which is one of these wipe coating tools, had something called She Bills, which is a women-only hackathon. And I just finished one a couple of weeks ago and heard that I won my category, and we had over 900 women across the globe building apps for that 72 hours, and the community that comes after has been absolutely phenomenal.

Rick (30:58.27)

That has to be- I mean, I think when you went to this hackathon, I- correct me if I'm wrong- it was all just for women only? Yes. Okay. which I think is great. I can only imagine the stories everyone was sharing with each other. And I think, you know, they were all together embracing how to come up with new ideas, how to take AI and build these applications. And I think it's astounding to see that happening because I think with technology, you probably wouldn't have this opportunity to exp expand and learn, and you know, give everyone a shot to take this opportunity to learn something new. Now, you probably have come across a lot of people at, you know, this hackathon. Do you go to a lot of hackathons just to go, or do you go a lot to go and then compete as well?

Nina Kolari (32:03.95)

I've joined, I think, six in total in the last year. I joined for a couple of reasons. One is having a hard deadline. Somebody else says that this app needs to be ready by X date and time. It's phenomenal; it stops all procrastination because you just have to execute. And I also go to test ideas. Like, some idea in my head might sound good, but I don't know how other people are going to respond to it.

Never say never, but I think I've done enough hackathons now for my time and I might actually, which I've already started, I become a judge in other hackathons. So I've moved more to the other side now.

Rick (32:48.54)

Wow. So how is it when you are you when you're on the other side, you're a judge, how do you look at that from being a participant? What’s the difference?

Nina Kolari (32:59.96)

I think the main difference is, I think what people don't understand when they join a hackathon is how very little time the judge can look at the app that you created. It's literally minutes. Usually it's a demo of two minutes max. And in that time, you need to explain what the app does and why this solution is best for the problem that you think people have.

That is one of the hardest things to actually do: to explain your idea in such a simple way that somebody who's never heard of you and your app instantly understands who it's for, what it does, what the problem is, and the solution or the outcome. And having gone through hackathons and of course my marketing background truly helps in this.

So, I always focus on making sure that judges understand within 10 seconds what my app is about, who it is for, and why it is here. So, get that instant reaction like, okay, I understand who this is for. So that obviously helps me in hackathons to as a participant, but also something I look for as a judge is like, do I understand what, why are we here? And what is the...what are we looking to solve?

Rick (34:28.858)

Excellent. Now we talked about building the application, but you also talked, and you just said it right now, there's the marketing side of it. So, what does that entail? What's the process?

Nina Kolari (34:43.086)

Well, that's kind of like what people don't talk about. People think the app is like the 90 % and 10 % is marketing, but it's actually completely opposite. 10 % is the app and then the real work starts. And this is not talked about too much. And as a marketer in the background, I obviously help market my own apps. And that is what I also help others do who don't have that experience. Now, what was the question?

Rick (35:19.88)

Well, no. That's okay. No. I mean you're you have someone who's actually building app, but then you know, you have like the business side of it, like, okay, I built this, now I wanna monetize it. How do I market this? How do I get it out there and get known, if you will?

Nina Kolari (35:35.768)

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

So, since the market, people always say that marketing is the hard part now with our business, and there are multiple ways to market. You can do SEO, you can do paid ads, or start sharing your founder story online on social media, or you can become a blogger or something. There's numerous ways one can actually market your app. 

One of the reasons why I chose iOS was specifically because of the App Store. There's already a marketplace for the apps that I'm going to create. That was one of the deciding factor why I went there. And that has actually helped me in the beginning with getting my apps to the market and to the users mobile phones without me doing much. So the app store has been really great, especially in the beginning when I started this career.

Rick (36:35.88)

Hm. So I wonder if, though, once people build the app and you explain the marketing side of it, I mean, do you see people like, gosh, we have to do all that? I mean, this I kind of like, I don't know if I want to do this now

Nina Kolari (36:48.298)

Yes. Yes. Yes. And that has been the one thing I heard from developers, even early on when I was networking with developers; they were like, I don't want to do the marketing. I don't want to know about it. I just love building apps. But if you are, yeah, because it's a completely new job description that is totally different to building apps. And throughout the year,

Rick (37:07.09)

And that's fair, yeah.

Nina Kolari (37:17.45)

I used my marketing background to create a list of things I do for each app. And it became this long list of things that one can do to optimize an app. It's not just marketing or paid apps, but it goes all the way to improving onboarding or paywalls and all the things that goes into the app business. And that actually checklist that I created became the app that I built for the last hackathon that I won. So it dumps all my last year's experience of building apps and then on top of it, my marketing experience and allows the other app builders to utilize my experience of the last year to improve their own apps one by one.

Rick (38:09.332)

So, other than hackathons, do you go to other events that dive into the world of AI, you know, the vibe coding, if you will? And kind of going back to the hackathon where you won, it was for women only; I can only imagine the conversations that were taking place amongst the groups there. 

Did you get a sense of what it was that people were wanting not only to learn but to understand what this new world is bringing for them because it really is going to be a new world. We have to understand that. And I think for me, AI offers a lot of promise. But then you're also going to have those on the bad side who are going want to do something mischievous. But I think that's the speed of how this moves.

Sometimes I think it's going almost too fast just from what I've been seeing and reading about. What are your thoughts on that?

Nina Kolari (39:16.578)

The AI is moving incredibly fast. Even last year, when I heard comments that what I did was, developers were like, how did she do that? She doesn't have any development experience. How can she build an app to today where I could teach you to build an app in the next 30 minutes and you would have an app ready to go. So it's insane how fast things have moved.

I made a couple of boundaries for myself because things move so fast, there's new tools every day that I don't look at them all. I'm very particular what I actually look at and give attention to because the only way I can succeed in this is to stick into the lane that I chose and learn anything that's relating to that and forget all the other AI noise that is out there. So I do attend events, but I'm very particular about what kind of events and what I can potentially learn there. Because I can't learn everything, I have to say no to actually a lot of things. But I think that one of the best decisions has been to say no to many, many things throughout this year.

Rick (40:35.496)

Right. No, that's a good thinking process. I think people should make a note of that. Gosh, I lost my train of thought here. Where do you- I guess for developers- that was what I was gonna ask. Do they feel a sense of, my gosh, I guess I could be replaced?

Nina Kolari (40:56.15)

Yes, and it's actually something that is almost happening first time. Developers have had very good job security over the years. Things have changed, and they've always had to rearrange with the new coding language, but this is something completely different. And I don't think software developers are going to be replaced, but I think their job description will change quite drastically. 

They kind of also have to step up their game, making sure that the average 50-year-old woman doesn't come in and actually take over because they have some sort of different knowledge than the developer has. So I think everybody should be on their toes and see what is actually happening in my industry and AI. Is this something I should be doing to make sure I'm future-proof and I actually have a job that I enjoy in the future.

Rick (41:54.943)

Yeah. I guess in a way AI kind of puts everyone on the same playing field, so to speak, because well, I can create an app and I don't have to know anything about coding or anything. If you had to take a wild guess, where do you see AI being in the next five years? I mean, that's like a leap year, so to speak, because of the speed that it's going. But not only do you think, do you see where it could go, but where would you like it to go? What would you like to see?

Nina Kolari (42:36.256)

If talking specifically on apps, I think I would like to see more people that don't think they can build an app actually build an app. I've seen 10 year old creating an app for themselves on their specific need and why code an app that helps them in their, as a 10 year old and going all the way to the other end.

People in their 60s and 70s building up from their point of view in life and what they need. Who has been building is going to have disruption. It's usually been a very unified group of builders. But now anybody can build from their own point of view and their own problems and experiences. The who gets to build is really completely changing.

And I really, really enjoy looking at that. Where it's going to go, I don't know. I really don't know because things have changed so much in the last year that maybe we don't have apps anymore. Maybe we don't have websites even in five years. I don't know. Maybe we all have personal agents, and my agent would call your agent, and they would have a discussion, and when things are ready, let us know, like, hey, Rick said this and Nina said this. And then we only meet. I don't know. I mean, agents are really interesting in how they are actually only now really being autonomous in how they work. I use something called Crocbot and it's absolutely phenomenal.

Rick (44:33.78)

Wow. I can only imagine when you look back at where you first started and where you are today, the things that you have learned that you probably thought you couldn't do, and now you realize you can do this. 

And I guess, you know, I'll ask you this one last question, and I think we touched on it briefly. That for those who are young, I mean they're gonna grow up with this. So it's gonna be the norm. But to those who are like in their thirties, forties, you know, up to your like you say, sixties, it could be a frightening thing to know that, my gosh, if I don't even take the time to just maybe learn how to code, let alone learn AI, there's gonna come a point in time I'm gonna be lost in this world as to how to cope.

Nina Kolari (45:06.754)

Yeah. Yes.

Rick (45:32.445)

So, what would you tell someone like that who has that doubt that they just can't get a handle on embracing AI? What would you tell them in terms of, let me give you some viewpoints that while it looks kind of bleak, here's why you should embrace it and here's how, here are some steps by which you could take to start to learn and realize it's not as bad as it appears. That's about the best way I can put it.

Nina Kolari (46:05.772)

Yeah, and it definitely is not as bad as it feels. I think I would approach someone who wants to start doubling is to just be curious what it could help me achieve. Not necessarily think that you have to learn everything about AI. You can just pick one tool and start with that and start learning how it actually works and what it can do. 

And one of the best ways to start learning about AI is to ask AI. Like, I'm completely new; what should I learn first? And it will actually start telling you and approach it always with curiosity and keep asking more. Like if you learn one thing, so what should I learn next? How could you help me with the next task? 

And I think it really helps if you start talking to AI. I know it sounds pretty strange, but typing is slower and you kind of think what you type. When you just go on a free talk, almost rambling, and see what the AI actually thinks of that and how it can help. think people think better by talking. Of course, everybody's different. 

I definitely- I just need to talk things out to get clarity and just start talking experimentation. You cannot do anything wrong as long as you don't give it your all personal details and your credit cards and all that keep those safe and separate. But other than that, start with simple things. It can help you at home or with simple tasks at work; it could actually help you execute them faster or in some other way.

It doesn't have to be massive. For example, I often tell this story about an app I saw out of the blue on LinkedIn. One man always wanted to create an app, but always thought the battery was so high that it wasn't for me. They discovered wipe coding and created an app that tells if it's OK to put the clothes to dry outdoors or not.

Is it going to rain today or not? That was the premise of the app. Not groundbreaking by any means, but that person now has is building his third app. Only because he took a very simple problem, tried to fix it with an app, and now actually has his third app completed- an actual real-world problem-solving app. 

So, the simplest ideas are the best in the beginning. Maybe it's like, what should I meal plan for this week? And create an app that helps you meal plan every week. And then go from there. Just see where it takes. Just approach with curiosity and talk about it, and the rest will work itself out.

Rick (49:20.872)

That's excellent. I love that advice. Well, to you know, to your point, my wife uses ChatGPT quite a bit. And she takes kind of the same approach you do. She just starts typing in and asking questions. And she loves to garden. So we have a couple of fruit trees, and one wasn't doing so well. And I saw her from my office window; she was out there taking pictures of the fruit tree.

And I didn't ask anything because I was kind of busy with something else here. And later on, she came back and said, I think I found a solution for how we can get our peach tree back to being more productive. And he said, Is that why you were taking pictures of the fruit tree? Yeah, I just put them in ChatGPT, and I asked these questions: What kind of tree is this to begin with? What do you think is wrong with it? And it came back with a list of questions or answers.

But also, recommendations about what steps you could take to solve it. And it gave my wife a schedule. And she has been using that schedule. God is my witness. Last year that tree barely produced fruit. The next year, because she followed the schedule of how to do proper watering and what have you, we had more peaches than we know what to do with.

I could not believe it, Nina. my gosh. I mean I was just I mean, my wife is she's very curious as like you and she she's not afraid to take a step and and learn something. But I think, you know, what you've shared with us, the hackathons, how to just embrace the change that we're going through right now. I think it's just something people will need to understand it's

Nina Kolari (50:50.254)

Yeah.

Rick (51:18.516)

For some, it's gonna be difficult. For some it'll be, well, you know, this is not as bad as I thought it was gonna be, but because I did take the opportunity to learn about it, dive into it, start practicing it, asking questions, talking to it, as you said, and they'll realize that it's not as bad as is some people are painting it out to be. So I think to that end, that's excellent advice.

But I usually end the program by asking a few what I call speed round questions for people, and I only have a few of them here, so I'm going to ask you the first one here and see what you tell me here. What was the best concert you ever attended, and why?

Nina Kolari (52:05.688)

Can you ask that again?

Rick (52:06.162)

A concert? You went to a concert or a Broadway play or something. What was the best concert you ever attended at? And what did you like about it?

Nina Kolari (52:16.974)

I have to be honest, I haven't been to a concert in a long time.

Rick (52:21.098)

What was the last one? Can you remember?

Nina Kolari (52:28.342)

As a concert that I bought a ticket I cannot actually.

Rick (52:33.064)

That's okay. No, no, no worries, no worries. I mean, to be fair, I've had a few people tell me the same thing, you know. But no. What do you wish you had more time to do?

Nina Kolari (52:46.998)

I would love to learn to draw. That is my next year that I want to learn to draw. Go back to pen and paper and more time for that kind of things.

Rick (52:49.737)

Really?

Rick (53:02.12)

Wow, you gonna talk to ChatGPT about that? Well, well, you never know.

Nina Kolari (53:05.358)

I have not yet, but I will. When the time is right, when I have actually time, I will, yes.

Rick (53:14.184)

What was your first paying job?

Nina Kolari (53:18.434)

My first paint job, it was when I was I think 13, too young to officially work, but I wanted some pocket money. So I went to the grocery store nearest where we lived and asked, could I do something? And they allowed me to help back the bags for shoppers and take tips.

So that's, I think that was my first, it was an official job, but I earned some money out of that. Yes.

Rick (53:54.709)

Well, it's a job. If a group of friends that you know very well were to write a book about you, what do you think the title would be?

Nina Kolari (54:10.638)

Part of me is like, I don't know what to say. Title. It probably would be something about brave to do maybe unusual choices or live by your own. What I think is the best rather than what society or other people think I should be living.

So, I don't know how that would become a book title, but maybe Brave Explorer or something like that.

Rick (54:44.786)

Okay. No, that's great. I love that. Okay, one one more question. what would you attempt to do? This oughta be good for you. What would you attempt to do if you knew you couldn't fail? I mean there was no obstacles. You say, I wanna do this and it's gonna happen. What might that be?

Nina Kolari (55:08.462)

I knew what I would have answered a year ago. Right now, I'm...

Hmm. I actually don't have this is the weirdest thing. I'm enjoying the journey so much and seeing where it takes me. I'm not quite sure I have one thing I would do, because I've done so many things I didn't expect to achieve in the past year.

It's weird that I don't have an answer. I don't know what to say. That's the weirdest thing.

Rick (55:46.696)

No. You know, don't worry. I I mean I've asked f a few people and they were stumped. It's like I wouldn't even know where to begin how to answer that question. And even after I gave them some examples, it I mean they were being very honest. I said, I I just don't know. And that's okay. 

So but listen, Nina, this has been a very interesting conversation. And again, congratulations on your second hackathon win. That has to be something to be proud of. And who knows, maybe you'll win a third one. So I hope you continue on your journey. And it's great that you have this podcast that you can help other women to build their confidence and learn how to tackle this new world we're all walking through.

Nina Kolari (56:19.064)

Thank you.

Rick (56:44.198)

And I think it's something that, hopefully, we'll get a grasp of, and just move on. That means that's life. 

Nina Kolari (56:52.802)

Yeah, yeah. I've had a phenomenal year and I can honestly say I've never had this much fun working. I don't feel like I'm working.

Rick (57:00.223)

Well, well, there you go. Well, that should give everybody encouragement. My gosh. But to my audience, I hope you enjoyed this discussion with Nina. I know I have. And we'll be talking to everyone soon. Take care, and we'll say goodbye for now.