Interview #38 Wesley Warshawer: Curiosity builds bridges. Ridicule builds walls.

Rick (00:00.362)

Okay. Hi everyone, I'm Rick Barron, your host, and welcome to my podcast, That's Life I Swear. My guest today is Wesley Warshawer. 

So, here's a thought. 

Imagine one day you realize you don't really understand your own country. Now what do I mean by that? 

Well in 2017, Wesley looked at America's culture and philosophical landscape and suddenly recognized something very unsettling.

The people around him, his friends, colleagues, even neighbors, represented only a fraction of the country. 

Well one day the light bulb went off in Wesley's head. He sold most of his possessions, left his apartment, and began living in some of America's most rural and conservative communities, going from North Dakota to Mississippi and other states. Now he wasn't there to debate or change anyone's mind. He was there to listen.

Now for more than 18 months, Wesley talked with people about their politics, beliefs, values, fears, and hopes. And then he kept going, believe it or not, traveling through Latin America, Africa, and Europe for an even broader view. 

So here's the question: What might we discover if we had the courage to step outside our own bubble to grow, learn, and seek improvement?

Let's find out. Please join me as I have my conversation with Wesley Warshower. Wesley, welcome to the show.

Wesley Warshawer (01:36.922)

Thank you so much. Happy to talk with you today.

Rick (01:39.854)

Yeah, I've been looking forward to this. So, for the benefit of the audience, could you share a little bit about your background and what you're doing today?

Wesley Warshawer (01:48.634)

Sure, so like you, I'm a Silicon Valley nerd. I do data analytics at a semiconductor company and I love my work. It's a great job, great industry. But there's definitely another part of me. I am very interested in gaining wisdom through leaving your bubble. And a bubble can be defined in a lot of different ways. I don't even think saying I'm in a bubble or you're in a bubble is an insult or a problem. We're all in bubbles. The interesting part is what happens when you leave it, when your bubble crashes, or when it scrapes against another bubble. How do we respond in those situations? And so I've spent quite a few years abroad. I had the adventure you mentioned, and those questions are really my passion, and I love to talk about them.

Rick (02:46.925)

Great. So I think you said it was back in 2017 you realized this thought, but what was that? I mean, what was the moment that said, Wesley, I gotta do this? What grabbed you?

Wesley Warshawer (03:00.963)

Yeah. I mean, maybe unlike most people, my parents are from different political parties. I've never felt a big vitriol against people on the left or the right. My dad is from Los Angeles, a big city; my mom is from rural Indiana, a small town. And so I never really thought that either of those communities were good or bad. 

It wasn't really, and I had no real vitriol, but I grew up in southern Arizona; now I'm working in Silicon Valley, which was definitely a new bubble for me. I was in a new bubble. And I read a poll just coincidentally in 2017, after the election, and the poll said that approximately 50% of Americans voted for Trump. Approximately 50% of Americans lived in a house with a gun. A third of Americans believed the Adam and Eve story was literally historical. Truth. And again, none of those statistics on their own really were shocking to me. I kind of knew that. But the epiphany for me was, holy smokes, are 50% of the people that I interact with on a daily basis Trump voter? Do 50% of the people I'm meeting at the grocery store or at work live in a house with a gun? And anyone who knows anything about Silicon Valley.

Not at all, not even close. And so it really wasn't the stats themselves that provided this epiphany. It was those stats relative to the bubble that I was in. And so that kind of made me feel a bit disappointed in myself. That I was so out of touch with these figures, you know; these figures about America were not representative of the figures in my life. I'm a data person, so I love looking at numbers and thinking about them.

And it was the incongruence that really sparked this epiphany.

Rick (04:59.293)

I see. Okay. So, when you were packing up your belongings and getting ready to go, did you have a plan for where you wanted to go first, and if so, why there? 

Wesley Warshawer (05:12.867)

Yeah, so this kind of simmered. That was in twenty seventeen. This just simmered in my mind for a few years. And then 2020 happened. I'm a software person; my job went remote. And so I thought that this is my chance. I'm not anchored to California anymore. I can do this. And so I looked up online what city of over a hundred thousand people has the highest percentage of Trump voters. And at the time it was Bismarck, North Dakota. And I said, okay, that sounds like a great place to start.

Rick (05:43.863)

So, when you went to Bismarck and other places, did you live there for a while, or did you just stop by for twenty-four hours and you went on to the next city?

Wesley Warshawer (05:53.294)

My plan was that in each place I would go to, I would book an Airbnb for approximately one month. And so it was a little bit cheaper that way. It was also a good amount of time. I mean Monday through Friday I am still working. So, you know, a month in these towns, it's not like I was being a tourist for one month. And so the goal was about one month; sometimes it was a little less, sometimes it was a little more, but stay in a place for about a month and then after that find a new place and continue on.

Rick (06:23.927)

So maybe you've already answered this question, but did you find living there was more of an advantage to really learn the environment rather than well gonna be I'll stay here for maybe two or three days. I think I'll figure it out and I can move on. What was the decision to say I'm gonna stay here for thirty days at least?

Wesley Warshawer (06:48.175)

Yeah, I mean, my journey was, you know, yes, I wanna live here, but it's like I wanna find a favorite restaurant. I wanna join a gym. I wanna have a favorite bakery where I see the same people all the time, go to a butcher's shop, and try to get them to know my name and let me know their names. And it was I think that's hard to do in a few days. I mean even a month is short by you know, depending on how how how much you're trying to assimilate into the culture, but I thought a month is approximately a good amount of time and I really tried my best to I want to meet people, I want to talk to people, I want to make friends, and so it's hard to do in a few days.

Rick (07:31.019)

Absolutely. So let well let's start with Bismarck. how many people did you really get to meet and know, if you will, in that short period of time? And what did you learn?

Wesley Warshawer (07:45.226)

I loved Bismarck. I mean, I think a lot of Californians don't know much about it. I didn't know too much about it. I thought the people were fantastically friendly; they were kind, they were interesting, and despite some of these kinds of superficial differences, you know, West Coast, elite, affluent, technologically advanced community to a smaller town that's, you know, maybe not super into tech or something. I just found we had so much in common. And when you ask people questions about, you know, people ask me like, How did you start up these conversations? You're just at a restaurant. You're just at the gym. People love to talk about their communities. And if you just, with curiosity, without prejudice, just say, Hey, I'm new here. Tell me about this town. What do you like about it? What are the good parts? What are the bad parts? What should I do this weekend?

What's your favorite thing on the menu? I mean, with these types of simple questions, people open up, and they're happy to share what they love about their communities. And so, you know, how many people did I become best friends with? Maybe not a lot, but I I had great conversations with people. I got invited to a fundraiser at the zoo by the person at the gym, you know, these types of events. And you just talk to people, and I think if you go in with a curious mind, people are happy to share.

Rick (09:14.753)

Yeah, I think curiosity is the key word. Now, just starting with Bismarck, you said you found people to be very friendly, very receptive. And I'm sure there are other places we'll talk about, but just starting with Bismarck, do you think the environment there just helped cultivate the personalities of the people that you met there versus what you experienced in Silicon Valley?

Wesley Warshawer (09:42.18)

I'm sure, yeah. I mean, I think it's when you're in a smaller town, that there’s a bit more social cohesion. I think there's a lot of pride in Silicon Valley; there's a lot of transient people, and so maybe there's not as much pride in their community. You don't hear too many people saying, I'm so pumped, I'm so honored to live in Cupertino or Sunnyvale. I'm a proud Sunnyvale person. But here they choose to live there, maybe they grew up there. 

But what if even if they didn't they chose to live there. And so I thought that was really beautiful and and they they want to be there. They love their community and they're anxious to share. So if you're willing to listen, they're happy to talk to you about it.

Rick (10:26.455)

So, before we move on, another question about Bismarck: did you- it almost sounds like you sounded surprised at what you discovered there. Am I right? Or what was it that really wow, this is something that I never would have known had I not taken that leap of faith and just started to find out what's out there.

Wesley Warshawer (10:50.433)

I was surprised that I liked it so much. I mean, I didn't think that it was gonna be bad by any means, but I was surprised that I loved it. I mean, I went to a few open houses to learn about the housing market. Like I loved it. I just thought it was so, so kind, so great. I loved the sense of community. And I think at least in California, maybe you can share your opinion. 

It's like there's kind of prejudice maybe against rural America, working-class America. The flyover states. I kind of feel it in some of the conversations with my colleagues in California. They’re proud to be in California. They're proud of their, you know, which is great. But I don't think Californians give enough credence to how great the people are in the middle of the country. And, you know, I'm not from California, so I didn't necessarily have all of those feelings, but no one goes to v and on to North Dakota on vacation and you know, I didn't know what to expect and I just went there and thought, Holy smokes, this is just an incredible place.

Rick (11:59.288)

Well, Silicon Valley has changed a lot. I mean, I was born here, and my wife is Canadian, so when she first came down, after we got married, I would take her to places where I used to work on ranches. And we used to have farms here for Pete's sake. And it was way different than what you see today. But it just seemed like in the blink of an eye, once companies like Intel and Apple came into play, it just took off.

And it was instant population growth that you just couldn't believe had you just moved here. But having been born here and watched it grow, it was like This is impossible. But that's where we are today. And I think that's how the culture has changed from what it once was. Cause it used to be very different. It used to be quiet here, believe it or not. But, you know, that's another story.

Now you left Bismarck. Where did you go next? What other places did you visit?

Wesley Warshawer (13:03.375)

So while I'm in North Dakota during the weekends, I'm trying to travel from east to west, and I fell in love with Theodore Roosevelt National Park. Just a quick anecdote. You know, I don't think people know about this, but Theodore Roosevelt, he he's a New Yorker, he's a big city person, rich, f and his wife died in childbirth and he had, you know, this obviously very depressed; it was a horrible time, and he decided that he was going to go to the frontier and that was gonna be his reset to his life because he had just lost his wife. And he goes to North Dakota, which was the frontier at this time, and he talks about in his journals, in his diaries, about this prejudice that he had against rural people, frontier people. 

They're a bunch of uneducated people; the real intellectuals are in New York City, where, of course, he was from. And he writes about that prejudice that he had and he completely fell in love with this type of life and that there was honor in in working with your hands and living off the land and being in in rural communities and he lived there for three years and this is where he got the idea of a national parks system and he would go on to create the first national park system in the world. 

And he writes in his diary something like, I would have never had this, I never would have become president. I never would have had this idea to conserve nature if I hadn't spent time in North Dakota. And so North Dakotans are very proud of this. And you know, that's not exactly I don't think people know this story, and I think it's a great story because he had prejudices and wrote it in his diary. But when he was there, he said, No, this is not what I thought. This is a beautiful place, and the communities are beautiful here. 

So, I think all city people, when they're thinking about rural communities and towns, should think about Theodore Roosevelt and his story. So, yeah, so I traveled around the Dakotas, and then I just said, Okay, I'm gonna- I traveled around North Dakota, and then next I said, Okay, I'm gonna see South Dakota. And so, I stayed there for six weeks or so.

Rick (15:18.773)

Was there a difference between north and south?

Wesley Warshawer (15:21.921)

Actually yeah, I think there yeah, I think there is a difference. I know some Bill Marr is a comedian and he always says, why is there two Dakotas? I think that they do have they are different, and they have different industries, and it depends on where you are, but I do think they're different, and I loved them both.

Rick (15:22.923)

Was it really?

Rick (15:44.652)

Yeah, I think everyone has a prejudice that you kinda grow up with, thinking that because someone's out there in a rural area, well, you know, they're dumb; they can't be happy. But you don't know that until you go there and check it out. It's like people in Africa; some people still live in straw huts, and people say, Well, gee, how poor that could be But they're probably the happiest people in the world. We don't know that, you know?

But as you were traveling from state to state, did you ever hit a point where, okay, this is way different than Bismarck. These people are looking at me in a different fashion because I'm not from this area and they can recognize it by the tone of my voice. What was that did you ever have an encounter like that?

Wesley Warshawer (16:34.741)

I mean I think everyone knew that I was foreign and I didn't hide it. Obviously, I was, and I think it's good to lean into it. Like, hey, I'm not from around here. I'm sorry if I don't know something, but I'm not trying to blend in necessarily. I I I'm open about that. I remember being in Alabama. I spent some time in Alabama, and I remember going to this barbecue place that I had read had the best barbecue.

And so, I walk into this place and it's kind of in rural Alabama. I start talking to this guy, and I find out he's the owner. And after, you know, a little bit of time talking, he kind of paused the conversation and he says, Wait a minute, where's that accent from? And of course, that's funny because I thought he was the one with the accent. And I said, I'm I'm living in California now. And he said, California? All right, you you can eat here, but don't you bring that California socialism over here.

Rick (17:34.497)

Wow. How did you how did ya how did that make you feel?

Wesley Warshawer (17:35.928)

And that was just a, well, in the moment, I played it off as a joke. I said, all right, I won't and we kind of both laughed about it. But it was a weird epiphany moment for me because I thought this guy has learned one data point about me and he thinks he understands my economic leanings, he understands my politics, he knows that that's not fair. And conversely, I think Californians do that to him or to people in the South. And so it really gave me this belief that we're all putting each other in these boxes. We learned one fact about a person. I'm from California. I'm not even from California, but he thinks he knows me. 

And so it I think it's sad that we just quickly judge, you know, I think in the culture, especially in California, but kind of in America, it's like in polite society, this idea of like we don't judge people or we try to remove our prejudices against race or gender or sexual orientation, that's become kind of common in the culture. But still somehow it's okay to be prejudiced based on someone's geographic location or because of their job or their politics. And so it really made me think a lot about bubbles and just how quickly, how instinctively we just put people in boxes.

Rick (19:07.649)

That's, and it's becoming even more intense in this time period that we're living in. You mentioned epiphanies, and when we spoke earlier, you described an extraordinary increase in your epiphanies-per-year ratio, which I found very interesting. What did you mean by that?

Wesley Warshawer (19:29.091)

Yeah, you can see I'm a data nerd here. I have a ratio of how many epiphany moments you are gonna have in a given year, let's say. And I asked this question just anecdotally to people. I say, how many moments in the last year have you kind of looked back on and said, " That was a point of clarity? It was a it was a moment that changed my life, a moment that I'll remember forever, that changes the paradigm in which I see something. 

And just anecdotally, I ask people, and a lot of the most common answers I get is one to two per year. And for people that are traveling a lot, that are outside their bubble a lot, I think you can have an epiphany a month. And so, again, data nerd side, that's twelve to six to twelve times higher rates of epiphany moments just by being outside your bubble.

 And so, as a person who's interested in personal growth, I want to learn a lot; I want to change how I see; I want to grow. Knowing I can speed up my growth rate by six hundred to twelve hundred percent per year really motivates me to stay uncomfortable, to stay outside my comfort zone.

Rick (20:45.131)

Wow. Now, as you met these various individuals and got to know their cities, you kind of alluded to this, but what were you learning about yourself as you were traveling through these places?

Wesley Warshawer (21:06.413)

It's such a weird paradox that a way to learn about yourself is to meet other people. I think it's a strange thing. A good way to learn about America is to leave it. It's a weird paradox. And so I think as I as I left and talked to a lot of different people, I learned about myself and the assumptions that I have about people, the prejudices that I hold. 

I think, you know, one of the biggest ones that I really felt was this idea of ridicule culture. And ridicule culture is in right now. It is cool. If you go on YouTube, how many videos do you see where the title of the video is watch this woke leftist get destroyed by facts? Watch this Trumper get owned by common sense. I mean, these types of videos are popular now. 

And you know, it's not good to say, but I think I was maybe part of that a little bit. I liked those shows. Jordan Clepper had a show where he went to Trump rallies, and he made fun of Trumpers. That was the show. And Jesse Watters has another show which is the same idea. He goes to left events and ridicules people to their face. And I've watched those videos and I've laughed at those videos. And that's not a good thing. I mean, that's a bad part of a culture that we have in the United States that is cool. I think I was part of that. And now I detest that media. I think that's horrible, you know, if we want to criticize the government, a democratic operative or a Republican president. Absolutely. But some random person, like that, is just not conducive to beneficial dialogue. 

It's just pointless. It’s rude. It's mean. It's not helpful. And so, I think I definitely grew to despise that element of our culture that somehow thinks it's cool to sit in the comfort of my own bubble with people who look like me, who vote like me, who have the same types of job as me and just watch a video where some person in a different bubble is ridiculed. I mean, that's just so lazy. It's so stupid. 

And so, I remember thinking, how many times are they talking about something that, if someone put a camera in front of me and asked me to comment about ranching communities or, and I mean, millions of topics, how dumb would I sound? And so I just thought, you know, this is just bad, and both political sides are doing it; rural and urban people are doing it to each other. And I just became allergic to that cultural element of our country.

Rick (24:00.557)

Yeah, I think it's become so, so easy to do this today that, like you, I've come across some of these videos on YouTube and other outlets, and I'll look at them, and I ask myself, so what am I supposed to get from this? It's just utter nonsense. And you know, some people subscribe, you know, pay to watch this. 

I really am asking myself: You're paying to watch this nonsense. I just don't understand what led you to this point, why you thought it was worth paying for, and how it's penetrating the American psyche to think, "Well, this is the norm now." We just must accept it. No, we don't have to accept it. We've just been led to believe that if you watch it a f a few times, you'll be numb to it. So don't worry about it.

And I think that's where we're kind of going into a ditch. And these are my thoughts, so you know, say what you will, but if we don't get away from that, this silly nonsense of cheap entertainment, you know, I think we're gonna pay for it long term, which I hope we don't have to. 

But you know, as you were making your rounds around the country, the United States, I think you mentioned that when we first met that you discovered the country isn't as divided as it's being portrayed on the national media. Can you give us some examples of what drew you to that conclusion?

Wesley Warshawer (25:43.3)

Yeah, I don't think that America's as divided as it seems, and that's like unbelievably controversial to say that now, but I really do believe that. I think people look at polls, and again, I'm a data person; I look at polls as much as an ex-person, probably more. you know, people will show polls that say, you know, fifty percent of Americans voted for Trump and fifty percent supported Kamala.

Fifty percent of Americans want to build a wall on the southern border, and fifty percent don't. Fifty percent have a favorable approval rating of Obamacare, and fifty percent don't. That must be the definition of division. 50 50 split. How much more divided can you be? And I'm sympathetic to that. I understand that, and I will see that there are political divisions in the country, no question.

But I think that analysis lacks something. It lacks the deeper part of America. So the foundations. That's all the political class; our whole society is built on a foundational moral level, an ethical bedrock, a moral compass that shows us who we are and where we want to go. I found that that layer is intact. And many people disagree with me, and they point to a lot of candidates that they don't like, and I understand that. But I really did feel that, instead of asking someone in rural Missouri What's your opinion about building a border wall, or what's your opinion on Trump or Biden or yes, those types of polls, I compared what I would hear in California and I compared what I was hearing in rural Missouri; different. But if I change the question a little bit t to say, paint me a picture of what you think a fair immigration policy looks like.

Paint me a picture of what you think a just healthcare system would look like. And when you start from that perspective, okay, there's a blank canvas in front of them, and they can paint whatever world they want. I found that the pictures they were painting would get a Californian to agree. I mean, maybe not a hundred percent, but that is a picture that a person in California would say, yeah, I see that.

And so, whenever we avoid the jargon, the political jargon that triggers people on the left and the right, and you just say, let's just start from an open canvas, I was shocked and surprised and overjoyed to see that actually there was a lot of similarities at the bedrock and the moral foundation.

And if I felt that there was a real crack in the foundation of the of the ethics of the country, that would not make me an optimist. That would make me a pessimist. But I can seed the points that we are divided politically, but the fact that we do agree at the foundational level gives me optimism.

Rick (28:49.813)

Yeah, I think we all want the same thing. And I think in the moment, as you said, we put labels on things like I'm a Republican, I'm a Democrat, I'm a conservative, I'm, you know, whatever. That seems to automatically, as you put it, paint the picture of who you are. 

But I know I think I shared this with you, I was watching on a news station where they had a panel of people and it was during one of the presidential elections and they broke into two groups one was you know, Republicans and one was Democrats and they talked about these questions that were of hot issues and the thing that came out was they showed this one lady talking to this gentleman big burly guy and she was very petite.

And she said, you know, we sat down, we talked, we asked the questions, but the moment we decided to ask ourselves what is it that we're seeking, we stopped to hear each other out. And there were points where, you know, I never saw it that way, but you do have a point. 

But how about if we look at it this way? What she was getting at was that people can be civil, they can sit down, they can com communicate, but I think we get bombarded with these grenades of you know we we have to save America from the deep state you know where did that come from it's just all these things are being made up and people are just buying it and I think those individuals who are having a very hard time making ends meet seem to feel like well you don't understand us you know and to a certain degree they have a point like what you're saying you went out there to listen not to just say, well, you're wrong. But like you say, paint me a picture. 

And I think at that point you got a much broader view of I never would have thought I would hear it in that fashion, but now I understand. And I think that's the whole point. I think what we're talking about here is that people don't want to take the time to communicate. I'll just go to TV and watch the news. okay. I've got it now. No, you don't. No, you don't.

Wesley Warshawer (31:13.849)

Yeah. And I think that when you see other countries, and it's kind of difficult, you know, you don't want to compare yourself to every other place, but how do you determine if you're fast? You compare yourself to other people. How do you see if you're tall? You compare yourself to other people. And so if you just look at other nations, many other nations do have fundamental differences in how they see the world. 

They are divided in the way countries split apart, North and South Korea split because the bedrock of what they believed about a country, about the path forward, was not the same, and they fought about it. And if you talk to many Chinese people, it's like communism or capitalism, Taiwan and they split apart because of these things. And so there are divisions in this world. I'm not a person who believes that all humans are all looking for the same thing at all times in the same way. No. I think that there really are deep divisions in dirt certain places. It's just that Americans, because our country is the size of other continents. I mean, America has the same population and land area as the EU. And so for a country of our size, we're remarkably united. And I think it's something that Americans don't really appreciate.

I mean, if you just compare Arizona and I'm from Arizona and I talk to a person from Vermont, that's a six-hour flight away, do we agree on generally the most basic things? I would say yes, we do, and I've run this experiment. but if you ask a person from Portugal to have a conversation with an Estonian, you know, they agree on a lot of things, but that division is way, way larger than a person from Seattle talking to Florida.

And so I think we have to kind of step back when Americans compare themselves; they compare themselves to their peers and to other nations. And I've seen real division. And so I just think it's one of those things: when you get outside your bubble and you see what other countries are dealing with, what kind of problems they're dealing with. You can stand back and say America has some real problems, A, B, and C place, but we should be optimistic about these, you know, X, Y, and Z issues because for the most part we do have the same ethical code, and I think that's a beautiful thing about the country.

Rick (33:45.313)

So how many other states did you visit? Did you cover a fair amount of the country?

Wesley Warshawer (33:53.572)

During those eighteen months I you know the purpose was to be in as different as a bubble as I could be. So I didn't go to any place that was liberal; I didn't go to the big cities; it was North Dakota, ended in Mississippi. Other trips and other experiences have been to other states, but this was specifically where we're going to the rural Midwest and the South.

Rick (34:16.525)

So, when you visited all of those places, was there was there a theme, so to speak, that yeah, they're all saying the same thing that I heard in Bismarck, that I heard in Mississippi, that I heard in Texas, or what did you dis what did you discover?

Wesley Warshawer (34:37.219)

I mean, superficially, I think, you know, there's of course differences in each of those places based on the professions they do and maybe the, you know, unique history of that place. Of course, there are differences. but I wanted to ask the deeper questions. I wanted to know what their vision for the world was. And so I got people who were Trump supporters to say, like, you know, things that they did not agree with Trump or the Republicans.

And say things that they did agree with the Democrats because I'm not; it's because I don't really care what your politics are. I do care about your ethics. I do care about that. I don't really care if you put a D or an R next to your name, but I do care about the fundamental principles that, you know, you live by. 

And so I did feel that yes, I got lots of diversity and what people were thinking politically, and obviously it's very different to live in Birmingham, Alabama, than in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Obviously, those are different. But I was overjoyed to see the common thread, the common theme of, I think, we actually kind of agree on the macro principles, and that just gave me great hope.

Rick (35:51.852)

Did people you talk to when you're asking these questions ever ask you, what are you looking for? Why are you out here?

Wesley Warshawer (36:02.441)

Sometimes, but normally no. I think they wanted to; I would ask them questions, and they wanted to talk. And I think people are very anxious and excited about where they come from. And so a lot of people ask me like, wow, you know, I don't have the skills to navigate that. And I would always say, like, yes, you do. 

You sit down at a restaurant, and you just start talking and say, Hey, I'm new here. What's the best thing to order off this menu? And then, you know, what should I do this weekend? What's the best place to go? And people are excited to talk to you, and people are friendly. They'll invite you. There's a zoo fundraiser this weekend. Go check it out. And it's not- I think people put it in their heads that this is some difficult, very difficult thing, an insurmountable task. And it's like, no, I believe all of us can do this with a little curiosity.

Rick (37:00.823)

So it kind of sounds like when you had the plan to go out and visit these places, let's start with America. You had an assumption about what you thought you were gonna find out, and when you went out there, you realized, well, I am pleasantly surprised. I I’m really I can really say I'm now an optimist that it's not as bad as I thought it was gonna be.

Wesley Warshawer (37:28.377)

Yeah, I think in California, I mean, you can share your thoughts on this. It's like there's a lot of doom and gloom. It's like, there's all these states that are voting against things that I like. How can they not see it? there's some demonization there. And I wouldn't say I was as extreme as them, but you know, maybe some of that had permeated in me. And so it was great to hear people talk about what they want.

And I had funny stories. I remember talking to this lady who worked at a hotel in where was it? Natchez, Mississippi. And I was talking to her and she said, you know, I gave her my driver's license. California? I've lived there. And I said, my gosh, no way. Like, what, you know, what did you think about it? Yeah, I was doing the training for this hotel chain over there. I really liked it, but I was happy to leave. And I was like, really? You know, what did you not like about California?

And she goes, Man, you guys are way too healthy over there. And so, you know, my first thought was she's gonna say something political or some deep-seated thing that really just did not clash with, you know, her way of life. No, it was something small, you know. She thought the culture of eating too much organic food sh it was a small thing. And so I laughed, of course, that that was her real reason.

Rick (38:32.844)

My god.

Wesley Warshawer (38:54.677)

And she said I liked California a lot. It was beautiful. I went to the beach and you know, I'm happy to be back in Natchez. That's totally fine.

Rick (39:03.521)

Yeah, absolutely. Now, you went further down the United States. You went to places in Latin America, Africa, and Europe. Did you do that at the same time you had finished touring the United States or did you take a break? Or how did that work out?

Wesley Warshawer (39:19.627)

I was digital nomading in America and one of my buddies said, Hey, some of these countries are opening up, you know, after COVID. Let's kinda do the same show you're doing here, but let's go abroad. And so he convinced me, and he and I traveled for three more years in Latin America and Africa mostly.

Rick (39:41.869)

Wow. Now what did you learn in those locations that you found very different from what you found in America? Where were some of the things that popped out?

Wesley Warshawer (39:56.304)

Well, I mean of of course, the first thing is all of the I call it, many people disagree with this characterization: the petty squabbles that we have about, do you want a wall or do you want more border patrol or all of these things seemed rather petty when you're outside of the American bubble and you're listening to what other people are arguing, what other people are discussing, the problems they have and the divisions they have, it kind of made me sit back and think.

Really? We're arguing, you know; we hate each other over building a wall or not, or I don't know, li and I know certain issues evoke certain emotions for people. I live near the border, I'm from southern Arizona. And it just puts it into perspective. 

It's like not that those things aren't important to talk about and think about, but that I'm gonna hate someone from a different state because they want a wall or they don't, or they want drones instead of walls or fences, and I mean it just seemed very petty relative to, you know, that's why I I really do believe leaving your bubble a lot. I mean, not a slight leave, a big leave is really good for people because it puts things into perspective.

Rick (41:11.927)

Where did you learn, well, what were some of the surprises you learned, like when you went to Europe or Africa, Latin America, about how they saw the United States? I think you kinda shared about that, but what were some of the things that, like, whoa, is that how you see it from here?

Wesley Warshawer (41:29.641)

About the United States, or I mean just in general, like I remember thinking, you know, the biggest takeaway for me is common knowledge is not so common. I think we all assume that, you know, you know what I know generally, or you have had a similar upbringing to me. 

That's just human beings are kind of like that. I remember being in Kenya, for example, and I'm talking to this guy, and a friend of a friend put us in touch. We're both about the same age. We're both in tech. We're young guys. We're so much in common. And we were just completely having a great time, great conversation. And he tells me that he recently got married, and I said, " Congratulations, congrats and then he said, Yeah. And he said, you know, but it it was tough. Like she's a great girl, but it was tough. And I said, what, what do you mean by that? 

And he said, Well, I'm from the Luo tribe and she's from the no, she's from the Luo tribe and I'm from the Kikuyu tribe. So, you can imagine how difficult that would have been. And I'm like, no, I don't. I don't know what that means. And I don't understand the history of those two tribes. And for him, he just assumed every person he had ever met knew the historical, the political, the economic differences between those two tribes and why there's a rivalry.

I didn't know there was a rivalry. I hadn't even heard of him. And he just assumed that, even though I look different than him and I speak differently from him, he just totally assumed that I would understand what that sentence means. Because every person he's ever met, every Kenyan he's ever met, when he says I'm Kyukuyu and she's luo, they're like, Ooh, man, that must have been tough. But here I am; I don't know what that is.

And he just assumed it. Despite the fact that I look different from him, I'm from, he still just couldn't even, and so it really makes me reflect on how many things do I assume other people know about me, other people know about Arizona or California or how many assumptions are all of us making, that you understand what I'm talking about? 

And I think that's really a good thing for people to realize, like, actually all of these cultural assumptions that I have are kind of relative. And so if I had grown up in Kenya, I would know what that meant. In America, I have absolutely no idea what the historical and political ramifications of that union are.

Rick (44:00.585)

I guess that would be almost like, I guess, street gangs, you know, here in America. You know, they call themselves names, maybe, though; they're like tribes, if you will. But no, that's very interesting. In the time that you were in Europe, Africa, Latin America, which area intrigued you the most about your mission to, you know, learn about yourself and the culture?

Wesley Warshawer (44:31.489)

I don't have a favorite region. But I do think it's very funny, like, and again, even I remember I didn't know what the difference was between Bolivia and Paraguay. I had seen a map, they're both landlocked, they both speak Spanish, they're both Catholic. Okay, they're probably similar. They're not. They're not similar at all. And when I was telling people that, you know, I just left Chile and I went to Peru.

To the average American, and again to me before I went there, it's like, okay, what's the big deal? But those are vast, unbelievably different places with different histories; they speak differently, and so it's one of those things where, when you're kind of ignorant about something, like I was, it's very easy to paint with a broad brush. It's just like, South America is like this. 

And once you spend some time there, you realize like that's not an accurate statement because Venezuela is not like Colombia. And, you know, Chile is not like Bolivia. And I I think that's a really good perspective too. It's like, you know, maybe someone in California is thinking Alabama, Mississippi, they're all, you know, whatever, same thing. And it's like, okay, well, there are some differences and there are some similarities. And people who live there kind of know what they are, or people who have spent time there kind of know what they are. 

So, for me, just the biggest joy of going to these places is seeing, you know, Kenya and Uganda, yeah, they're next to each other, both colonized by the British, they both speak English, lots of similarities. They're not the same. And when you go there, you'll quickly realize that.

Rick (46:09.259)

Wow. So, from the time that you left to the time you did all this traveling and learning all these different perspectives of life from people. Did you find yourself coming home being a different Wesley?

Wesley Warshawer (46:28.173)

Absolutely, yeah.

Rick (46:29.441)

How would you describe that?

Wesley Warshawer (46:32.735)

I think it's a lot about perspective. It's a lot about, you know, I really use this maxim now. Ignorance is not the same as malice. And I don't use ignorance in a derogatory way. What I mean by that is you can be ignorant of something and make a mistake, you know, offend somebody in some way.

 I offended a lot of people on my trip because I didn't understand the culture. I said something that was wrong. I said something that was insensitive. And that was coming from a very ignorant place in me. But not malicious. I was not being malicious. I remember I'll tell a story. When I was in Togo, I had a tour guide, and he and I were about the same age, a super nice guy, and we just completely clicked, just completely gelled. 

And I asked him a thousand questions about Togo, and he asked me a thousand questions about America. And one of those questions, one of a thousand questions I asked him, I asked him what his favorite movie was. And he kind of thought about it, and he said, Avengers or Mission Impossible, something like that. And I said, that's cool. And I said, what about your favorite local movie? Like what's your favorite Togo movie from Togo?

And he kinda thought for a second and he said, Hmm, I don't think Togo's ever made a movie. I don't think we have enough money to do that. And I was like, my gosh. And I was, you know, trying to defend myself, and I said, Really? Like, really? Like, there's never been a movie in Togo? Well, like, what do you watch when you go to the movie theater? 

And he kinda thought for a second, and he said I don't think Togo has any movie theaters. I don't think anyone can afford it.

Rick (48:33.004)

Wow.

Wesley Warshawer (48:34.179)

What a jerk. I mean I was how rude of me, right?

Rick (48:37.323)

Well, but you're not understanding the whole culture. I think you were asking an innocent question, but then when you got the feedback, yeah, you feel like, how could I have said that? You just didn't know. 

I think that kinda goes back to what we're talking about here: until you understand, you know, like Bismarck or places that you visited, Mississippi, what their background is like and how they grew up in a culture that is different from what you have here in Silicon Valley. Then and only then could you really say, you know, I didn't know this was happening in your state or in your upbringing. But now I can see why you probably would have a bias. But it doesn't have to be that way, and you don't have to hold that I hate to use the word hatred.

Because it doesn't have to be that way. I think there has to be a coming together of minds that says, let's sort this out. I think we can sit down and talk. And I think you pointed it out in a few examples, and I think I did for you as well. I think that's part of why this whole world seems to be kind of topsy-turvy at the time. But if there was, I don't know, a lesson to learn from this conversation for the audience, Wesley, what would you want to share with them? I mean, you had to have learned so much that you never would have known had you not taken that leap of faith and taken this journey.

Wesley Warshawer (50:22.169)

Yeah, I mean I think it's it’s the epiphany I had after talking to this guy in Togo, and that is that ignorance is not the same as malice. And so I was ignorant about Togo and I hurt his feelings. It was mean of me to sound like this rich American, and I hurt his feelings, but it wasn't coming from a malicious place, and I hope he extends that grace to me, even though I was rude and offensive.

And I think this idea of ignorance or malice is something that I think about a lot. When someone says something that I disagree with politically, or I offend someone, is that really coming from a place of ignorance or malice? And you know, there are malicious people. There are evil people out there. People can mean to hurt you and mean to offend you. Those people do exist. 

But I think in the United States, the culture doesn't give a lot of charity to, you know, hey, they just offended me. They said something that I don't agree with, and that hurt my feelings. Is that coming from a place of malice because they're a bad person? Or is that coming from a place of ignorance? And again, I don't mean offense to ignorance. I'll give one example. I remember being in rural Indiana, talking to a college-educated girl. She was smart. She had a great job.

And we were talking, and I just said that I was from Southern Arizona. And she looked at me, and she said, " My gosh, like I could never live there. And I said, Why not? And she said, I saw this stuff on Fox News about how there are caravans of people running through the streets. I mean, isn't that really difficult for you to work and go to school when there's just tons of people running through the streets? Like, how do you even get to class? That's what she said to me. 

And I told her, like, I'm not sure what video you saw, but I've lived in Southern Arizona for 25 years. I never seen anything like that. And I was able to go to class at the University of Arizona. And I don't know if anyone who's had that experience of just their life just couldn't continue because of this caravan of migrants. And I remember, you know, we had that experience that was kind of shocking. Okay, she really didn't know about my community at home. And I remember telling some of my buddies about that.

Who is from Southern Arizona, and I was I was explaining, like, yeah, I was talking to this girl and she thought this, and everyone was kind of chuckling at her a little bit. you know, how could she not know that? You know, why is she buying into Fox News propaganda? And one of my buddies took it too far. He said, yeah, you know, she doesn't know this; how silly, how ignorant. And then he said, She's a bad person. And I thought, No, she's not, she's not a bad person.

She is ignorant about what life is like in southern Arizona. She's not a bad person. And this is what I mean. People judge, okay, something they say is dumb, is ridiculous, is maybe hurtful. Is that coming from ignorance or malice? And this girl was ignorant of the situation, just as I'm ignorant of what her life is like in Indiana. And people are prescribing that sorry, they're ascribing.

A type of vitriol to her that she doesn't have. She doesn't have that hate in her heart. She's not a malicious person. She just didn't know. And so, you know, to answer your question, I hope Americans, the next time they hear something triggering, offensive, rude, just before they jump to this is a bad person, just stop and give a little bit of grace to say, huh, is this person saying that from a place of ignorance? 

Because they don't understand my lived experience, or are they saying it out of malice? And so just pausing just that little bit, I think, could really help the discourse in the United States.

Rick (54:16.609)

Yeah, I think a lot of people can learn from that lesson because they're quick to the draw. And I think that's where you know, you light the match right away and it's like, mm, okay. what other lesson might you want to share with someone in this journey that if there was you know I guess if you had to describe it in one word, what might that be? Hate to put you on the spot.

Wesley Warshawer (54:46.051)

Maybe tribalism. It's kind of like if I was to go to a, if I'm a Mets fan and I'm talking to a Yankees fan, there's nothing I can really say to convince you of my position. It's like I have always been a Mets fan; I'll die a Mets fan. I want my kids to be Mets fans. And not everyone is like that for politics. There are a lot of apathetic, politically apathetic people or kind of independent people. 

But a lot of it is just tribal and you know that's fine. People are tribal in all kinds of things, including baseball. And so just to kind of recognize that in ourselves, am I saying this because I'm really well researched about something, or because my parents were like this, or my community is like this, or everyone at work is like this. Just kind of noticing that in yourself.

Rick (55:41.504)

Right. That's well said. I appreciate that. So Wesley, this conversation was really intriguing, you know, for me. I think we're both on the same landscape in the sense of what we have shared with one another. And I hope that people who listen to this interview will take a step back and make themselves think: Have I done this? Have I jumped to the gun?

And what could I have done differently? And I think that's part of why people just need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and before you, you know, pull the gun out of the holster

What do you do? Think this out. And I think that, in part, that's why, in many places they they're just th they feel like the only answer is a club. I'll make my point with my club, you know. And that it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't have to be that way.

Wesley Warshawer (56:42.457)

And I really appreciate that on your podcast you kind of stressed this idea of extraordinary what's the term you use? Extraordinary stories in ordinary lives. And I think that's me in a way. It’s like, you know, people think, Wow, this is so incredible; he's been to all these places. You'll notice I didn't tell you about when I was in Kenya; I didn't tell you the touristy things. I told you about a random lunch conversation I had with a random guy.

Rick (57:11.245)

Ha ha.

Wesley Warshawer (57:12.117)

It’s ordinary, you know. I'm an ordinary guy. I have a job, and I was very lucky that it was remote. But all of us can have these extraordinary moments. And it could be that you could fly to Kenya, but it could also just be across town, a different neighborhood. And so I like that your podcast, your theme, focuses on these extraordinary moments, but in kind of a typical, your typical life. And so I really have always identified with that as well.

Rick (57:43.286)

No, appreciate that. Thank you very much. So, I like to close the conversation with what I call speed round questions. It's, you know, those short questions, just to add a little spontaneity to what we've covered. So, there are five, and I'll give you the first one. What's the best live concert you've ever attended, and why?

Wesley Warshawer (58:06.543)

Part of stepping out of my bubble is trying to do something new every week. And so one time I said, I'm gonna go to a new concert genre every month. And so, okay, I wanna go to rap, I wanna go to classical, I wanna go to and so I just, you know, I just went to this random in San Jose, SAP Center; I went to see Luke Combs, the country star. Didn't know much about him, didn't know much about country.

Rick (58:18.786)

Wow.

Wesley Warshawer (58:35.469)

And it was just such a blast to again, I'm fifteen minutes from my house and I'm in a totally different world. Everyone's got a cowboy hat and it was just the best. I I just thought it was so fun.

Rick (58:47.637)

That's cool. I love that. Well, that's good because you're checking all the various genres that are out there, and sometimes you realize, well, this is not as bad as I thought it was gonna be. It's this is great. So you learnt something. what do you wish you had more time to do? Especially now.

Wesley Warshawer (59:05.647)

Everything. I always wish I had more time. It'd be great to it'd be great to read more. I think sometimes being able to study, it's like if I'm a tech person, just to be able to pick up a book about anthropology or, you know, if you're an anthropologist, pick up a tech book. I I think it's great to have a day a week or something to spend more time reading about a subject that's not your expertise.

Rick (59:30.948)

That’s great. Yeah, I'm a heavy book reader myself and I know when my wife first moved down here, 'cause she's you know, came from Canada and we got married and she saw all the books I had, she said, I know you love to read, but we gotta do something about this So I donated some a lot of books to libraries and people I knew, but her rule is if I buy a book, one has to come off the shelf.

I thought, okay, I'll do it. So, I've been buying a lot of books on my iPad, so keep the volume there, you know. God. So, what was your first paying job?

Wesley Warshawer (01:00:13.455)

Well, I had some jobs as a kid. I I don't know if that's what you mean, but after school, you know, again, being out outside my bubble, I decided to go into some sort of IT consulting, which was really fun for me because I was flying every week to a new place, and it each job was in a different industry. So I would go to big places. I went to San Diego, but then I also went to rural Texas. And so it was a great way to work, but to be outside my bubble; I was super happy to be in that job.

Rick (01:00:46.784)

Great. That sounds interesting. Okay, so if your wife wrote a book about you, what would the title be and why? Think real hard now. She might hear this.

Wesley Warshawer (01:01:01.839)

Probably something related to being curious or to asking a lot of questions. I love to ask questions. Yeah, probably curiosity or asking a lot of questions.

Rick (01:01:17.385)

Okay. Okay, last question. what would you attempt to do if you knew you couldn't fail? Like nothing can stop you. Whatever you want to do, you can make it happen. What might that be?

Wesley Warshawer (01:01:33.228)

Maybe politics of some type. Politics is a dangerous place to get into, but if I knew I couldn't fail and I could really make some changes, I think that's great. You know, for me, I think it's really important. I think there's a lot of, you know, in some ways I think I'm not very good at politics because I'm not super engaged in that way, but I am interested in culture. How do we reform the culture to make it better?

Get rid of those. I don't want YouTubers to make a lot of money by ridiculing people. So maybe if I could do something related to talking about cultural issues and trying to bring people together, that would also be, I think, a good use of my time.

Rick (01:02:20.311)

Good. No, that's great. I love that one. So Leslie, I really want to thank you for taking the time to reach out to me to have this conversation. Again, you know, after we got off the call the first time, I was just going through my notes and what we had discussed and what you shared with the abstract of your story.

I just found it so intriguing that someone had the courage to leave and just start traveling. I mean, that was amazing, and I found that so intriguing that I just said I gotta I gotta talk to this guy and get his feedback on what he experienced and what he learned. And I think all of us will learn from this discussion; we probably see this, you know, every day. And hopefully some lessons will come out of it, and then people will be, you know, better people for it as well. So, I thank you.

Wesley Warshawer (01:03:17.391)

Thank you very much. No, thank you. Next time I wanna do it the other way, and let me interview you on your podcast because you've spent a lot of time in different bubbles too. You know, you've been in Silicon Valley, but you've been in the military and you've talked about travels and so I think it would be great to hear from your perspective how all the different bubbles that you've inhabited in your life. I think it'd be great to hear what epiphany moments or big insights you've had. So maybe another time we can try that.

Rick (01:03:18.416)

You're very welcome. Yeah, yeah.

No, I look forward to that. Thank you. I will take you up on that. Don't think I won't. Well, thank you so much. okay. To my audience, I hope you enjoyed the show, and I think you learned a lot from this discussion. I think Wesley has opened our eyes and ears to how we need to take that step, get out of our bubble, and take the time to learn, listen, and pay attention to our fellow human beings. Because that's what it all comes down to. So, to that end, we'll see you soon. Take care.