Interview #35 Amy Wong: Why Anger Feels Normal Now

Rick (00:01.806)

Hi everyone, I'm Rick Barron, your host, and welcome to my podcast, That's Life, I Swear. 

My guest today is Amy Wong. 

So let me throw out a question here. What if anger is contagious? Not just in the moment, but over time. I mean, every day we're bombarded with outrage, blame, fear, and hostility.  Every day we're bombarded with outrage, blame, fear.

In just pure anger. We watch it, we hear it, we scroll through it on our mobile phones. And eventually, could all that exposure change what we consider normal? 

Could we actually be learning to communicate through anger? And even more disturbing, could anger change our sense of personal power, teaching us to look outward for someone to blame, rather than inward for what we can change? 

Today I'm talking with Amy Wong about emotional contagion, norm learning, and the possibility that the emotional world we're consuming is quietly shaping the people we're becoming. 

Please join me as I have my conversation with Amy Wong. 

Amy, welcome back to the show. So great to have you.

Amy (01:16.16)

Thanks, Rick. It's always such a pleasure to connect with you.

Rick (01:19.852)

It's all good to see ya. So, for the benefit of the audience, I thought I'd let you provide your background about what you're doing today and how you got here. I think you can do it more justice than I could.

Amy (01:32.438)

Well, again, I was telling you earlier before we hopped on here. You just, yeah, I credit you so much for being on this path that I am, so thank you. Yeah, well, no, I mean I just fondly remember that moment when you, back in I think it was year two thousand, you asked this very important question: what do you want to do with your life? You really made me think. But yeah, no, today I guess the easiest way for me to answer. You know, what is it that I do? I've known since I was really young that I'm here on earth to help humanity move beyond a fear-based modality. And I've been thinking about this a lot ever since I was young. And now, of course, when I was young, I didn't have words for that, but everything I've done has led to what I do today. 

Today I would say, you know, functionally I'm a keynote speaker, I'm an author, I'm an executive advisor, I'm a coach, all the things. But really, what I've become fascinated with is the medium of communication we all use to connect, navigate, and grow with one another. We don't live in a vacuum; we don't create impact in a vacuum; everything's happening in relationship with one another. So how we think about, and how we engage with, others through the medium of conversation is crucial. 

And  it's often left to chance. And so, I've just dove really deep into that from a scientific, biological, neurological, mechanistic sci- you name it- just to understand it deeply. And then wherever there's a need in the world, I'll go help. And so that's what I do. I serve a lot of teams and leaders, from startups to very, very big companies. 

That's what I do and I love it. I feel like I live a miracle every single day. And when you and I were chatting, you were like, What's real and ripe for you? And I thought, gosh, you know, I'm noticing quite a few things in the conversations I'm having with founders and with leaders and just watching trends in my own classes that I teach. And it was just- it's- and so that's what led to this topic. And so, I'm really excited to dive into this with you. Yeah.

Rick (03:53.868)

Okay. That's great. Yeah, we talked about this about a month ago when we were coming up with a theme, and then you came back and gave me your abstract, and I thought it would be a really interesting topic to share with a lot of people because I think we're all seeing this. And it seems to be top of mind for you. And I guess what has you thinking so much about our constant exposure to anger, blame, and hatred. I think you mentioned, too, when we spoke about this, that you wrote an article about it. Could you share that?

Amy (04:26.845)

Yeah, well, it's funny. When I wrote the article, I was thinking a lot about what's called the mirror exposure effect. Interestingly, the article was more about how I was becoming conditioned to things I initially didn't like, and now I'm getting to a place where it's like, I like it. And the analogy I had in my article was, you know, you might hear a song for the first time on the radio and you absolutely hate it.

And you're like, what a horrible tune. Like, who what production company decided this was a good idea? And then, you know, just we, you know, we're battered by the song on the radio, and we hear it. And then, you know, within a few months, we hear it come on, and we're like, my gosh, I love this song. You know. I think about that. And, and, and I just know that what's in the part is in the whole, and what's in the whole is just so I recognize that.

That's just a pattern that is representative in life in general. And so, I've been thinking a lot about the fact that, you know, we're exposed to a lot. And we become conditioned, we become desensitized. There's just so much to talk about; there's so much to say about this. And you and you know, as a devoted, I don't know, I don't want to say thought leader; that sounds funny- but as someone who really cares about this work, and as a parent, I think a lot about, you know, what is it that we're moving into as a people as a result of what we're constantly exposed to. 

What got me interested in this is that the article was interesting and kind of kicked off the thought because I was thinking more about social media and whatnot. But what really got me thinking was this: I teach at Stanford Continuing Studies, and it's been about 10 years now that I've taught every quarter. 

And I've had one class that I’ve consistently taught over the 10 years, and it's always over-enrolled, or at l at least it's totally filled. And it's called conversational intelligence. And the whole idea of the class is: what do we need to know about conversation so that we can create and sustain trust with others, recognizing.

Trust really is the ultimate currency. You know, and if you're human, you get that innately. And so, if you're the kind of human that's fascinated by science and really wants to optimize that, this class is for you. So that class has always been popular. But what was wild was the last time I offered it a couple of quarters ago, it was so under-enrolled. 

And I thought that's interesting. At the same time, I'm having a lot of conversations with founders and leaders in big companies as I work with them. And I'm noticing this trend where I'm hearing statements like, well, we don't have time for empathy. You know what? We just need to perform. We just need to perform. 

And it was shocking because, you know, over the past seven, eight years, there's been a move in the direction of understanding that, you know, collaboration and we get more done when we're all coherent and when we can synchronize it.

And so to hear, like, no, we don't have time for empathy. We just need to perform. We just need to perform. I thought, well, that's interesting. And so, I didn't want to put too much meaning into it, but I'm just noticing the news. I'm noticing the prevalence of dehumanization, or at least what we're watching: anger, the blame.

And then I just, I'm like, yeah, is this some element of mirror exposure effect? Is this emotional contagion? Are we learning a new norm? And so then I really kind of started to think about it because, you know, that's one concern for me. And then on the flip side, the other class that I teach, which is about empowered communication, was like off the charts and rolled. I almost had to, or I had to almost do a st an additional class on top of it because there were so many on the wait list.

And that's never happened. And I thought that that's an interesting balance because, you know, if we're becoming so conditioned to this outrage and this, let's call it blame, and looking out to the world and saying this is wrong and feeling that that let's call it helplessness or anger. You know, on the flip side, there's a part of us that just wants to be empowered. Where's my agency in this? And so, now, of course, as a sample size of my world, it hasn't done anything rigorously in order to validate this, but I thought it was interesting. And so that's why we're talking about it.

Rick (09:18.295)

Well, you mentioned some examples where you were told We don't need to do this; we need to do that. And the word need seems to be prevalent in conversations I've heard in the past. And I feel that it's so easy to share your thoughts on a mobile phone and just walk away from what you just said to someone.

I feel that society has been molded into thinking that everything has to be fast. Say what you want and then say goodbye and we'll see you later. And it's become too easy. I mean, if you took away, you know, the social media world, you took away the internet. I wonder where we'd be today in terms of what we're experiencing. 

Now I know there was some mention; I don't know if I heard the term from you, but when I was doing my research on what we were going to discuss today, I heard about emotional contagion. And I don't know what it is about that phrase, but it almost felt like, are we now caught up in this web that we're stuck in, and it's only going to get worse? I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

Amy (10:46.355)

I'd like to believe that we are wildly capable people. And when given the opportunity, we will choose the right thing. I truly believe that at the core we are hardwired to be connected with one another. And in the long run that will prevail. So I don't know, you know, anyway, I'll just start with that.

But the whole thing about emotional contagion is, gosh, it's just all of this is so fascinating. I read a book called Invisible Rivals. It's so good. And it's the evolutionary science of deceit and exploitation. And the author, who is, you know, a scientist, he gave me a lot to think about. And going back to your point about, you know, we're going so fast, there's this internet, we can say something and walk away.

It's interesting that what he proposes is that because of Dunbar's number, it's this idea that once you hit a certain number in a tribe or a society, the rules break down, and then it just becomes a different beast altogether.

And the reason for that is that when the numbers become so big, you can hide. You can hide your intention. And so, deceit and exploitation can prevail. And so this idea that, yeah, with the internet and with all this information and with so much, you can, like, especially with social media, you can say the thing and walk away, right? And you can say the thing anonymously. 

There are ways in which we can hide, and we create, you know, so much damage in this way. This is deceit, right? Exploitation. With emotional contagion, you know, we've got these mirror neurons, and we mirror the emotions of one another. You know, it's like for the same reason if I start yawning right now, big, I won't do it, Rick. But if I start yawning big, you're likely going to feel the urge to do so as well. And so, it's just typical. And you know how this goes. You come home after a day out, and you find Judy in a bummed-out mood with low energy. You're likely to pick up on that and kind of move into it. And it's just we mirror each other, and you know I have an image in my head. I saw this clip. It was so cool.

So, it's called synchrony, right? So, with this idea you can have all these different metronomes. If you're familiar with a metronome for music, you know, it goes right. So, like imagine a sea of metronomes all lined up. You've got, say, a hundred of them, and you set them all off to go off at a different time, and it's all just cacophony; it's chaos. Within a couple of, you know, within a handful of minutes, they all sync up, and each one of them is in sync. 

And so again, what's in the part is actually the whole. And so, I look at these patterns, and I just wonder, like, what's this doing for us as a people when we open up our phone, and we see all these headlines, and we see all these things where it just sparks anger and outrage. Where is this going? What do we do? What do we do about this? Yeah. So, I don't have an answer. I just have these observations. I have questions.

I have ideas, you know, ideas of what we maybe can do, but I find it fascinating and somewhat consuming. Yeah.

Rick (14:19.969)

Yeah, I mean, from my point of view, I mean it's hard to escape because, as I said earlier, it's on T V, it's on social media, it's even on podcasts. And then, you know, when you look at the landscape of our politicians of today, it's almost like anything goes.

 I mean, this is, you know, we're following a leader that just seems to want to just be angry all the time, and I don't understand it. And I just feel like this repeated exposure can change one's emotional baseline. And I feel that why is it that I can see people can just turn it off, and then some people are just getting so wrapped up about it that they, you know, they kind of just roll into a ball and go into a corner like, you know, I just cannot take this anymore. So, it's hard to kind of untangle all that.

Amy (15:16.927)

Totally, you know, and I think about this because repetition doesn't merely tell us what to think and feel about the world; it trains the emotional tempo at which we meet the world, right? 

And if we're not conscious of this, we're just going to let it happen. You know, I'm thinking of a study that happened, and you might be familiar with this. It was a while ago; it was in 2012, and Facebook did a study. it was a large study, many, many, many, many, many participants. They altered the news feed to change the language and tone. 

And what they found was that when they intentionally made the news feed more positive, it was in a more positive light. The status updates and posts from the individuals reading through that news feed were skewed much more positively. And then, when they intentionally changed the news feed to be more negative, all the updates and posts from these individuals were more negative. 

And so, you know, I think about, you know, that I just think that studying is very, very telling. And while it shows us there that we can affect a short-term change in language, yes, sure, we can say it doesn't suggest anything about long-term changes in personality, or you know, or behavior, but this is where I get passionate because I know for a fact that

Our words do create our world. The language that we use with one another is what we walk into, the language we use ourselves. And so, to your point about, you know, there are some people that get super wrapped up in it, and then there are others that decide to really put boundaries around this. I think it's just the difference of recognizing whether I've got agency or not, and I care about how I feel or not. And I'm the kind of person that recognizes that.

I feel the way I feel unconditionally via what I choose to see and perceive and believe versus blaming the world. I'm not going to look out there and say the world is the reason for what I feel. I'm, I'm, I am, I am, I get to author what I'm living here. And so again, it comes back to this idea of empowerment. And again, and I wonder innately, is this why there's been more of a drive to this?

How do I grow this personal sense of agency to rise above what seems to be overwhelming and maybe appealingly helpless? You know, I'm helpless in all of this. I don't know, but it's interesting.

Rick (18:02.441)

I mean, I did an interview with someone about a month or two ago, and she came here to the United States from Belarus with her husband. And for her, when she first arrived, she knew she was going to experience a cultural change in people's attitudes and their way of thinking. And I asked her, “Did you struggle with that when you first came here? And she did.

But you know, I had my husband to lean on so I could bounce it off him. But I think for her, she took the approach to that I want to learn this new culture. And I think in part, I think that's what we're missing, where we just say, well, what is going to blame the world? Okay, but what do you know about that part of the world that you say it's their fault? You don't know.

Sorry to say it, you don't know a damn thing about it. Why don't you take the time to figure it out? Because you may find, okay, I did some research. It's not what I thought it was, even though it may look a little bit bad, but there's probably a reason why they're in this state of mind. So, you really have to think about that. 

And my friend from Belarus came here because she said she wanted to start a new beginning, and she saw the United States as a land of opportunity. I mean, because she knew she couldn't stay in Belarus because the opportunities were very minimal. But she's adapted, she's loving it, and she's learning to change, but she says I still want to keep my culture within me as well.

And she and her husband still speak in Russian, so they don't forget the language. But I think, you know, here's someone who took a chance, kind of a risky chance, to come from the other side of the world and start a whole new beginning, which I think is very admirable of her. But you know, I think for her she shared with me that she's learning the things that are happening in

United States versus what happened when she was in Belarus. And she sees so many different emotions, thoughts, thinking that, you know, we're just one planet. We're all going to have different outlooks on what we see in our life because it's what you were brought up with. It's your environment. Sure, yeah, it's going to impact you. But I guess what I'm driving at, I mean, can we eventually reach a point where

Amy (20:45.727)

Mm-hmm.

Rick (21:01.643)

As you say, you know, civility feels abnormal, and outrage feels normal. I mean, I've seen this every day, and I know you said earlier, I think over time, you know, goodness will prevail, and I feel the same way, but I feel like it's going to be a struggle to get there.

Amy (21:19.285)

Yeah. Yeah, I feel that too. And I'm going to- I'm committing to stay curious about it all. And that you sparked a thought as you were sharing that lovely story. Cause I think the antidote to a lot of this is just a commitment to curiosity. It's the antidote to that conclusion. 

And you know, when we come to a place when we climb up that ladder so high and are at the land of conclusion. It’s pretty; it's a rigid place, right? Because it's a decision we've made that this is the view and this is it. And the moment we've reached a conclusion, we set out to ensure that we are right. And so our lens changes. Everything that we view and see is colored through this conclusion we've made to validate our conclusion so that we stay up.

It's that land of conclusion. And in the process of doing so, we create so many walls, we create so much division, we create essentially conflict. And it's all because of a lack of curiosity. What your friend chose to hold was curiosity, you know, which I get I just think that it's a beautiful commitment to hold true to. 

I mean, it brings so much more peace in one's life. You know, when you think about it. I recall when you and I were chatting, you had a lovely conversation with, I want to say, it was a neighbor, and it was eye-opening. When I left that conversation, what you had shared was that, you know, it was just a commitment to being curious instead of being concluded. And I just wonder if there's so much if we could make all of this simple by making a personal commitment to just being more curious than judgmental, being more curious than concluded, you know.

Rick (23:18.039)

Well, I think a lot of people out there are just, you know, monkey see monkey do, and they don't have a mind of their own, so they just r rather follows the crowd. And in some instances, when they get so deep into it, they realize, my god, what have I done? This this is not right. And I think that's where people are just you know, it's just a constant emotional roller coaster that I think we're dealing with right now. 

Amy (23:22.997)

And it's addictive. That's the sticky part, you know, these dopamine hits, and you know, and you witness the stuff out there, and these people, the algorithms, and even our human responses reward the outrage and the emotionally extreme posts and the responses, and it just perpetuates it. So that kind of leads to norm learning, right? Because it's like, well, I, I there's a reward if I do this. So yeah, it's sticky. It's super sticky.

Rick (24:20.055)

Well, I mean, I I wonder about parents today and their children. I mean, they're exposed to this at such a young age. I mean, that phone is just attached to their body, and they'd be lost without it. And it must be, you know, very difficult from one family to the next to keep their ch children from being exposed. Yeah, they're going to see it eventually, but how do you try to keep them somewhat sane, to like, don't fall into this trap because what you're seeing cannot be good. I mean, there's some goodness to it, but when you see the overall abundance of people just throwing rotten tomatoes over the fence just to do it. I mean, how I mean, if I'm not getting it, if I'm telling me if I'm intruding here.

Amy (25:18.633)

No. Yeah. I'm so glad you asked. Because it's something that's been so present for my husband and me. I decided a long time ago. Well, a very, very clear decision. It was around twenty fifteen. I was a big Facebook user at the time. My kids were young. My son is eighteen; my daughter's thirteen right now. 

But at the time they were young and I And I just I just kind woke up to this idea that they're witnessing me on this platform, taking pictures for a platform, taking, you know, and like putting funny posts about the kids and about things, but they I just I had this meta thought about wow, this they're witnessing me live through life via this platform. Is that a healthy thing? Is that what I want to continue doing? 

So, I just walked away completely. I'll tell you now, though, Rick, given the nature of my work, it's funny because I'm okay on LinkedIn because that's where I keep in touch with my clients, but I have such like a minimal social media presence, and only, honestly, that was the trade-off, and I'm totally fine with it. But for my children, at the time, I just put it away. 

And so, then when I would take pictures, it would be like, let me send it to grandma. Let me send it to grandpa. Let me send it to Aunt Kate. You know, and so, and so they never saw me on my phone in the way that, you know, I know others just have different habits. And interestingly, both of my kids had no interest in getting social media accounts. 

However, I do believe it, and I always tell parents with kids that are on the younger side. My husband and I listened to Tristan Harris. It was in 2018 or 2019. We went to an interpersonal neurobiology conference, and he spoke, and it was before he even founded the Center for Humane. I think, I mean, maybe he was just founding it, but he was working on The Social Dilemma, and then it just came out. So, we thought, hey, why don't we all watch this movie?

And so, it was like family night, you know, I've got a seven-year-old, and I think a four-year-old, and an eight-year-old, four-year-old, and so we're sitting, and my two kids were absolutely enamored and just in awe of this movie about Instagram and social media. And I don't know if that I mean, I think that was very significant.

Because, you know, a couple of years later they asked independently there, like, hey, can we watch that movie again? And I'm like, Yeah, of course. But ever since then, I think they just had this feeling like, this is not great. And so they've just chosen not to be on it. At this point in their lives, they've, since my son went on it for a little bit at 16, hated it, and he pulled himself off. He's like, this just makes me angry, and this isn't healthy. So he has no social media accounts. My daughter has been very, very intentional about it.

How she's engaging. She just literally decided to get a TikTok account. It talks to me about it. She's like, you know, I'm just, I'm letting you know. I think I'm going to do this, and I'm going to check it out. I'm going to see how it is. But you know, we'll be communicating with each other because I don't want to go down a hole. And I just, I so admire her for that sort of awareness. But you know, that's just been our path. And I shoot, I don't, I don't know what the answer is at all. 

And again, it's something all of us parents talk about, we think about. It's that this is the future, you know. These little ones are our future.

Rick (29:08.757)

I'm sure they got awareness from you. From what you did. I mean, they probably felt, well, if Mom's walking away from this, there must be something to it that we need to be aware of. That's great that your son could mindfully take a look at the landscape and realize I don't want this. You know, there there's no need for it. And I think that's smart.

Amy (29:31.038)

Yeah. Yeah. But he had a visceral experience. I mean, he did not come to it from a conceptual understanding. He literally got an account; the algorithm started serving him like really inflammatory stuff about certain I mean, it was just perpetuating such anger about politics and conspiracy theories, and you know, and he would just be so enraged at the dinner table. 

My husband and I, our eyes are like this big, and we're like, dude, like, can you listen to yourself? And he's like, Yeah, but nobody knows, and so, you know, and you know, you just you kind of you're kind of letting them know, like, listen to yourself, buddy. Like, you and at some point he kind of snapped out of it. He was like, whoa, you know, okay, I'm going to. Yeah, so it's so for him to actually have experienced it, stepped away from it, and have visceral understanding of what this is like is I think really, really important. But you know, how do I don’t know. How do we help everybody have the wherewithal, or do you know, did they make that decision to really look at it?

Rick (30:39.371)

I mean, in the courses that you provide to, like, you know, corporate entities, does this type of a topic ever come into the conversation about what do you hear from what are some highlights that you can walk away from that you've heard, and I mean is there a particular trend that seems to be popping up with what we're talking about from corporate

Amy (31:11.721)

Well, if I had to be honest, it's not; it's very localized, and it's around the AI conversation, right? And it's not so much about fear, you know, it's not this how are we becoming conditioned to anger and fear in a general sense, but it's just I would say it's a bit more bounded in all of the what ifs and strategies and approaches and mindsets about how we think about what's coming and what's happen what's happening and what's coming. 

Again, there's always some kind of conversation about the essence of emotional contagion, right? So I guess to answer your question, it's like: how are we becoming? How are we molding our communications? How is this influencing our marketing strategy? How is this impacting how I lead our people, and to either be excited or to be fearful? And again, I think it all has these elements of emotional contagion, right?  I mean, but yeah, the topic is AI.

They're in the midst of this revolution, right? And this massive paradigm shift that I think is inevitable. Something, you know, it's happening. But we're positive about it. So positive, in fact, that we discovered a school that opened in San Francisco. It started in Texas. It's called the Alpha School. There's a ton of controversy around it, but it's absolutely phenomenal. And so the news picks up on it, and either they love it or they hate it. 

But we learned about it when it had just opened in San Francisco, and the kids were brave enough to say, let's do this. And so, it's a very AI-forward school. All academics are taught via generative AI. And the emphasis is, I hate to say future-proofing, but like, how do we actually how do we adapt our educational system to this? But more importantly, how do we teach the life skills that are needed for this next generation? You know, entrepreneurship, leadership, grit, persistence, teamwork, communication, education, public speaking, investing, that sort of stuff. So that, I mean, it's just been fascinating. So, we're positive. But we stay curious. I guess that's what we stay curious and committed to doing: doing what we can to influence positive change. Yeah.

Rick (34:19.421)

My god. I mean, I guess I mean, could our communication, if you can call that today, actually be changing because of the emotional environment that we're living in, maybe not just in the United States, but when you look at around the world and what's happening, you know, the potential war in Iran, you see people who we're leaving Morocco to try to get to Spain and there are all these little boats. And you see all these other events happening around the world that seem so tragic. And you wonder if that if we get so exposed to so much of that, if that also draws on our energy about, well, you know, we're doing great, how come they can't figure it out?

Well, it draws our energy from thinking that, you know, you see all of the happenings around the world and we're sitting here thinking, Well, we have our faults but look at our country. We're doing great. Why can't they figure it out? You know, it's- I don't know how you can, and maybe in part that's why they look at, you know, parts of the world and then they say, 

Well, it's their fault. You know, they can't get their act together so therefore there people want to get out of their country and come to the United States. You know, it just there's so many strings being pulled here that you I mean, this like I was telling my friend from Belarus, I said, I think we can figure this out, but there's so many tangibles of how each country, each culture looks at ways to solve the problem that well, I don't agree with that, but I feel like we got to start somewhere.

And I feel we're at this point, or at least at this time, and maybe I'm just overthinking this, that you know, w we only have one planet, you know. I don't think there's a planet Earth too out there. so we'll discover in our life. Yeah. So we gotta figure this out. I mean what do you think about sometimes when you watch all these events that do occur?

Amy (36:27.957)

Or at least that we won't discover in our lifetime. Yeah. Yeah. You know, here's the quick and dirty answer: there's this pervasive, very human belief that we are separate. That we are all separate. And I don't believe that. I mean, my eyes say we're separate. You're a separate body from me, Rick. And I know you're in San Jose and I'm here in Berkeley. And while we might feel separate, the reality is we are all one. And that's not a cliché. And I've had the privilege of experiencing it enough to know in my heart that it is true. And so if we hold a belief, an inherent belief that we're all separate, right? It's easy to say not my problem.

And so, then and then and then as we become desensitized to all the pain and the suffering and the and the and the anger and the dehumanization that's happening and we see it on the news, and it's then it's easy to become so numb to it that well, not my problem. You know, it's not in my world, and it's not my problem, and they're not me, and they're not my people, and they don't have my skin color, and they don't want to and so we see so much separation, so much separation, and I think, you know, in order to survive.

All of this we just we just numb out and I don't you know I don't know what's the answer going around telling everybody we are one everybody I mean that's not the answer either right but at some point like I just don't know how humans can look out at all of this and not be prompted to ask some really big existential questions you know what is all this about why are we here.

What does this quote-unquote suffering serve? Why is it happening? What do we do about it? Like I just I I think it's an invitation, honestly. And then there are those that are going to heed the call, and then there are those that are not. And I don't think there's a right or wrong about it. That's just life, I swear.

Rick (38:56.173)

Thank you for the plug.

Amy (39:00.085)

Yeah.

Rick (39:04.069)

No, I guess, you know, I mean, there are times when Judy and I are watching TV, and we're watching the news, and I just said, you know what, can we change the station? I just can't see any more of this. And that's when we popped over to Apple TV, trying to find something, you know, funny. And I say, Hey, what about Ted Lasso? I've heard so much about this. And we've been on this Ted Lasso binge for the last couple. I've never laughed so hard in all my life. 

Amy (39:37.089)

Ha, ha, ha. Isn't it just the most delightful? I love it.

Rick (39:43.222)

I love the slogans, I love the chemistry of the characters, but there are so many teaching moments in these episodes. I think I would say, for the most part, except for one or two, there is such a strong message about how we need to open up and get along with one another in life. 

And you know, Ted always has these pearls of wisdom that just floor me. And I mean, I've been taking copious notes of some of his quotes. I even went online and, you know, searched for Ted Lasso quotes, and I found quite a few. But when you see this, it's like, you know, this is what we can do if we take the time to sit down and communicate. I mean, you know, like one of the quotes that Ted said, you know, well, call me Dumbo, I'm all ears. Tell me what your problem is, you know? 

When you sort it out, you actually have someone who is angry, but when you start talking to them, when you start listening, then it comes out like, okay, I think we've got what we need to work with here. And that's why I just love the show so much. And, you know, we went on this bench, like I said, when we started a couple of weeks ago, and now we're in season four. So, the previous seasons were where we were just kind of going through each one, and then we watched it last night and said, okay, let's go to the next one. No, we're in the season where they only show it every Wednesday, so we must wait now. 

Amy (41:19.221)

I know. You're with the rest of us now, right? It's so delightful. I mean, we love it. Our kids love it; we all sit down. It's what we need more of in the world. Yes, please. More good news, more of this. Yeah, it's I just I'm a firm believer that whatever we focus on we create. And we get to choose what we focus on. 

Rick (41:31.627)

We do, we really do.

Amy (41:46.654)

It's just like watching it, just I mean, it's a perfect example. When I turn on the TV, I get to choose any show or channel, and if I don't want to watch horror, I'm going to change it. I'm going to find something else because I know it's going to affect how I feel. And so, in the same way that you do this with, you know, your shows that you're watching on Netflix, and all of us are doing that.

I know we get to do that at every moment of our lives. What thought am I thinking? What narrative am I telling? You know, what story am I perpetuating by engaging in this conversation in this way? What changes is that every moment presents a choice point in our life. And how we harness that choice point determines everything. In each moment, we get to choose how we listen. We get to choose what we share. We get to choose how we even perceive what we are witnessing. All of this is up to us. And I think we get to a point in life where we wake up, and we say, you know, I'm not going to let the world dictate my reality anymore.

I am going to be accountable to my experience, which means I am going to do the most powerful thing any human being could do: be present. Because at every moment I can harness this choice point. The only way I can harness this choice point is by being present. And so, in this choice point, I get to choose. 

And so if I'm very clear about what I want, you know which, and I'll tell you what I want. What I want is a feeling of unity. I want a feeling of love. I want to know that I am perpetuating a sense of connection and love more than I make. I want to leave this world a place better than I found it, right? And so I'm going to be intentional about this. 

And so, I just have to hope that maybe the silver lining in the prevalence that we're witnessing, what caused us to have this conversation, Rick, maybe it's going to create a wake-up call. It's going to be that many more of us are going to snap and say, you know what, enough. Enough. I'm going to do what I'm going to take control of my life, and I'm going to decide how I'm going to operate by harnessing my choice points. And so, you know, maybe that kind of empowerment is what's going to come out of all of this because, yeah, I mean, I know we're not the only ones talking about this.

Rick (44:16.557)

Well, I mean that that kind of takes me back to another quote from Ted Lason. I don't think it was Ted who said this, I think it was his boss, Rebecca, isn't it? I think it's okay. When I guess something emotional was wrong with him. I mean, but you said, you know, don't let your yesterday’s get in the way of today, and I thought, Wow. Short but so impactful. You know, I love that quote and

Amy (44:29.607)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it.

I mean right there, that's an invitation to curiosity. Because you know, the moment we brought yesterday into today, we've already made a conclusion about today. We've already put up filters that keep us from hearing. As you said, it's listening that keeps us from hearing what's available. Yeah. So being an empty vessel, that's the key. Mm-hmm.

Rick (45:04.503)

So let me give you a final question here. I mean, we probably, you know, touched a lot on this, but you know, if we're being shaped by what we are being exposed to day in and day out, then what could one do deliberately to expose ourselves to avoid more of it? I mean, what could be some

Suggestions, if you will.

Amy (45:35.998)

I think it's important to get to a point where you decide that it's something that you're worth doing something about, right? Personally, I had to decide that I have agency here. And I think that we must get to a point where we decide that I'm going to do something about this. I'm not going to be a victim to reality. 

I'm not going to let the world dictate how I feel. So, I think we must come to a decision first. That's the first thing. Is that I've got agency. And maybe it is true that what I focus on does influence my experience of reality. And once you come to terms with that, you must decide how you want to feel. And I will talk a lot about this in my work.

And because I think you know this, Rick, but like my background was mathematics, and so I tend to like to think of things in extremely logical ways. Take very abstract things and break them down into what seems like proof. But the way I see it starts with the decision. Second, we've got to decide how we feel. Now feeling can be squishy, and a lot of people like, emotions- that's like, you know, the squishy woo-woo side of life. And I say, Well, not really. You know, I'm clear.

That all of us want to feel good. That's why we do what we do. It's why we want what we want. So, to keep it simple, if we map all emotions on a vertical scale, there is a neutral line that separates positive from negative emotions. And I would say, just my guess, is that most of us want to be above the neutral line. 

So, if that's true, which I kind of believe it is, then you know, if step one, I decide that I'm going to do something about it, step two is also now realizing I want to be above the neutral line more often. So if I want to be above the neutral line more often, then I'm going to care about how I feel. So then that's step three. Okay, now if I want to be above the neutral line, then my job is to notice when I'm not. Because guess what? If I'm not above the neutral line and I'm below the neutral line, then it's how I'm engaging with reality.

And maybe the way in which I'm looking at this, maybe the way in which I'm engaging, maybe the belief I'm holding, maybe my approach, maybe it's my mindset that's influencing how I'm down here. It's not the world itself; it's my relationship to the world itself. And so what's that relationship I'm holding? 

And so, you know, I think this is how we start to move out of this disempowered habit that you know we fall into because of the prevalence of all the negativity and we just say, you know what, if I'm down below the neutral line, well I can choose to stay here or not. It's up to me. I can tell a different story. 

Now I say this playfully because I'm not at all advocating for toxic positivity where it's just, you know, like if we're in a negative state and we need to feel grief if we like and you want to be there, be there. You know, if you're upset and you want to drink wine, eat chocolate, and listen to Sarah McLaughlin, then do it, right? I mean, that's fine. If you want to be there, be there. But at some point, you must ask yourself, is this working for me? Is it working for me? Because if it's not, I'm going to do something about it. I'm not going to wait for the world to change because it won't.

And that's the crazy illusion that we cannot move the pieces of the world around enough to get it to a place where we find perfection, joy, and peace. It just doesn't work that way. It's up to us. And so, yeah, I think that's what we do. And maybe, maybe the low-hanging fruit in that moment of recognition.

Where, if I'm below the neutral line, maybe the easier thing to grab is just curiosity. Can you be curious about this moment?

Can I be curious about what the gift is in this upset or in this supposed failure or setback? Can I see, can I be curious about what might follow? Can I be curious about what this person's intention might be? Can I be, can I just be curious? And then, and then, and then we see. I just think that creates a lot more flow and a lot more bandwidth for creativity and connection than otherwise. Yeah.

Rick (49:41.793)

Wow. I'm glad I asked the question.

Amy (49:46.645)

Well, thanks. I'd have to write this down, Rick.

Rick (49:52.642)

Okay, so I've started something different now, with my podcast shows, and I ended it with what I call speed round questions. Just something spontaneous. I've just picked some questions randomly. So let me give you this first one. What was the best live concert you ever attended and why?

Amy (50:12.017)

Okay, it was the first concert I ever went to. It was Sting, and I went with my dad, and I was probably 10 years old. And the reason it was the greatest was that it was my first concert. It was with my dad. And the tickets that his buddy had secured for him; he forgot to do it. And so, we got to the concert, and there were no tickets available. And I don't, I don't even have the details of this story, but it turns out that the person next to us was our banker.

In line, and she's like, my god, I'll just all and like I don't even know. And then I guess she had to, like, I don't even know how it worked out, but then we got bleacher seats. We ended up, you know, so we're way up high, and I just remember being so tickled that I was there with my dad. That's yeah. And it was one of those stories that you'll never forget. So that was my best concert. Yeah.

Rick (50:58.221)

No, that's great. No, I saw Sting a long time ago, but God, great, great concert. 

Amy (51:06.761)

Yeah, what a what an artist, right? He's amazing.

Rick (51:09.673)

He is. What do you wish you had more time to do?

Amy (51:23.219)

Okay, so this is an interesting question, especially that you ask right now, because I just finished this book called The Relentless Elimination of Hurry. And it has been so present for me that I don't even think about these things anymore because I am doing exactly what I want to be doing in every moment of my life. And it's been a wild journey over the past, I want to say six months. 

But I had to if I could just stop doing what I'm doing. I'd probably just read more. I just love reading. I love reading. So, if I yeah, I'll tell ya- if I didn't have this four-hour commute for school and such, as I'd- yeah, I'd be- I'd be reading. I'd just be sitting and reading. Yeah.

Rick (52:09.547)

Well, that's what Judy tells me, so I'll never see you without a book in your hand. Cause I read a lot, and the rule of thumb is that if I buy a book, one has to go because I have loads of books, and I had a lot more before she moved in. But no, because I love to read. To me it's just I'm now I'm reading a book called ‘Theo of Golden’.

Amy (52:40.731)

I just got that book. Yeah. I'm going to pick it up after I finish this other one. Yeah, it's on my bedside table. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Rick (52:46.785)

Yeah, it's great. What was your first paying job?

Amy (52:51.761)

So, it was under the table. I was, I think, fourteen or fifteen years old, and a neighbor of mine hooked me up to the American Cancer Society thrift shop. And the woman who owned the store needed someone to sit in the back warehouse room with no windows and steam all these used clothes. And I'll tell you, like this. So, I sat, like, after school, I would ride my bike over there and steam.

People's old clothes, so that they were, and like the smell- I got used to it after a while, but like, yeah, what a first job, right? mm-hmm. I've got some PTSD with steamers, but yeah. But it was my first job, and I was proud of it.

Rick (53:36.813)

Okay, here's one. If your husband and kids wrote a book about you, what would the title be?

Amy (53:47.062)

It's funny, only because I've got this other book, The Relentless Elimination of Hurry, in my head; I might say the Relentless Pursuit of Joy.

Rick (53:59.566)

Well, that sounds like you. Yeah. It does. I would, I would, I absolutely would. Okay, I have got two more to go. Okay, so you've finished a long trip, you're home, and you just want to kick back and relax. What is your favorite comfort food?

Amy (54:40.10)

That's hard to answer cause I'm married to a world-class executive chef, and I don't say that lightly. It's true. Anything this man makes is my favorite food. It truly is.

And I love that he surprises all of us every night with stuff that's left over in the fridge or something he was very intentional about. So, I don't know if that's a cheat answer, but the answer's true. Anything he cooks is just comforting for me. Yeah, I know. I yeah. As soon as this goes up, I'm sending it to him.

Rick (54:52.207)

Ha ha ha. Well make sure he hears this recording. Okay, last question. What would you attempt to do if you knew you couldn't fail? I mean, anything's possible.

Amy (55:12.821)

What would I attempt to do if I knew I couldn't fail? Gosh.

I absolutely love what I do for work, and I don't even think of it as work. So, it wouldn't, you know what, would be? It would be taking on gardening. 

That is the one thing that it just perplexes me. For as much as I love being in nature, and for as much as we are, hell, I'm just not drawn to be in the garden like my husband is. I'd much rather write and read a book. He wants to; he talks to the tree. He's out there, and I so love that he's out there because the bounty is amazing, and I get to appreciate it. But there's that part of me that's like, gosh, I wish I liked doing that. And so maybe yeah, it's gardening. That's what I would, yeah. Yeah.

Rick (56:06.175)

Okay. That's great. You've got to talk to Judy. She has a green thumb. She's amazing. Well listen, Amy, this has been enjoyable conversation. It was so good to see you again. 

Amy (56:21.269)

It's always, it's just so heartwarming and such a treat, Rick. Thank you. Yeah.

Rick (56:26.325)

And to my audience, I thank you so much for joining us. And if you haven't had the opportunity, I highly recommend you pick up Amy's book called Living on Purpose. It's her first book. I read through it and took copious notes, and you'll learn a lot. And you can also go to Amy's website, and I'll provide that in the show notes. But please do. So, to that end, I thank my audience, and we'll talk to you soon.