Interview #27 Dr. Theresa Lyons: Redefining Autism - A New Perspective

Rick Barron (00:01)

Hi, everyone. I'm Rick Barron, your host, and welcome to my podcast, That's Life, I Swear. My guest today is Dr. Theresa Lyons. Now, today's conversation is about autism, but it's not in the way most of us have been taught to think about it. Families have been told autism is lifelong, unchangeable, and something you simply learn to live with. 

But what if that story was incomplete. 

Dr. Teresa Lyons has a PhD in computational chemistry from Yale, a former pharmaceutical strategist and a mother whose life changed the moment her daughter was diagnosed with autism. Now instead of accepting ‘well there's nothing to be done’, Dr. Lyons did what scientists do. She questioned, researched and followed the evidence. 

Now what she discovered challenge long-held assumptions and open a new conversation about what autism is and more importantly what it doesn't have to be. 

Dr. Lyons helps parents around the world understand the science of autism in human terms not with promises, not with hype, but with clarity, compassion and hope grounded in research. 

This is a conversation about intuition grandparents and parents and why autism may not be a life-long sentence for everyone. 

That said, please join me as I have my conversation with Dr. Teresa Lyons. Dr. Lyons, welcome to the show.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (01:43)

Thank you for having me here. I'm very excited.

Rick Barron (01:45)

Oh, I've been looking forward to having this conversation with you. Now, for the audience's benefit, could you give us a brief background on what you've been doing, how you got into this, and a little bit of history?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (01:59)

Sure, so a little bit of history. I love chemistry. Always loved chemistry as a kid. Mixing different things in the basement of my mom's cleaning solutions.

Rick Barron (02:09)

That could be dangerous.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (02:11)

Very dangerous, making bubbles and smells that should not be inhaled. But that was me. I was always very curious and wanted to, ooh, what if I do this? What if I do that? So that's the kind of person I am. So, chemistry was my love, and that's what I did. 

I have a bachelor's in chemistry. I have a master's in organic chemistry. I have another master's in general chemistry and then my PhD is in computational chemistry. So definitely I love chemistry. And after that I worked in the pharmaceutical industry. So, my PhD research was on structure-based drug design and then that applies obviously very easily to the pharmaceutical industry. And I worked in R &D for a little bit and then transitioned more to the business side and became a medical strategist.

So, that was really understanding the business of the pharmaceutical industry, clinical trial design, publications, and continuing medical education. How do you get doctors to talk about the pharmaceutical? 

So that was a different side of the pharmaceutical industry, but I certainly enjoyed that and then my daughter was diagnosed with autism and I asked okay now what and the answer really was not acceptable. Basically, there's nothing really you can do. It only gets worse. It doesn't get better. And that as a strategist, that wasn't an acceptable answer because I was expecting to, give me the guidelines. What are the cutting edge? Tell me about the research. And I wanted and was expecting just all these different options and I wasn't given that.

Rick Barron (03:55)

Hmm. Did the people who told you there's nothing we can do, did they even give you some insight as to why there was nothing that could be done?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (04:06)

No!

And that is part of why autism can be so frustrating because an autism diagnosis is made based on observation. So you go to a specialist, so either a pediatric neurologist or developmental pediatrician. A general pediatrician cannot make an autism diagnosis because they don't have enough specialized training. So, you go to a specialist and it's based on observation. 

There's no urine test. No MRI, no blood tests, no stool tests. There's no medical tests that then says, okay, this is autism. So, to get at that why, right? So why is my daughter not speaking? We don't know. Why is she doing these repetitive things? We don't know, right? So, it's just very empty. As a chemist, right, I'm thinking on the molecular level, there's gotta be a reason, right? Like, what is the reason?

So that's what got me going in that direction.

Rick Barron (05:10)

I see. So, in terms of, and just kind of a good segue, because I was doing some more research on you and about going to doctors who, you know, well, we don't have an answer, but I think you took it to another step. And what I mean by that is that I discovered that you wrote a book in 2020 about autism and functional medicine doctors. 

And very quickly, the synopsis of the book, I understand, is a list of doctors in the USA to work with children with autism and who are passionate about uncovering the root cause of many symptoms that come along with autism. How did you pull that together? What was the spark that said, need to do something that could really, someone could read and say, look, this gives me a direction where I could at least begin to talk to someone who truly understands my world.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (06:06)

Well, I will say one thing: an updated version will be released this summer. So yes, it was in 2020 when I started that. 

The whole premise of that book was as I started working with parents one-on-one, I got up to speed very quickly on who are the doctors who are able to ask that question why and then figure out answers. So, it's a different way of practicing medicine. So for conventional medicine, a lot of times it's, all right, short-term view, let's just resolve the issue, but not really get at the root cause, just kind of a band-aid approach. 

And so, as I was working with parents, one-on-one throughout the country, I started having this Rolodex, right? Because I would have a new person I was working with and they're like, okay, we need a good doctor. All right, let me look into it. So, they wanted my level of good doctor, right? So, I started having this list of good doctors who wanted to work with kids with autism, because many times we take our kids with autism to someone, and they don't really want to deal with autism because it's so complex. 

So that was the first hurdle, like finding doctors that really wanted to work with kids with autism and then ones that were knowledgeable. So functional medicine-based, intimate, integrative medicine-based. They're trying to understand on a molecular level what's going on with the body. And so I ended up having an exhaustive list of doctors in the United States. 

These were all doctors that I would take my daughter to so it was that level of trust I had spoken to all of them and there was a wait list of parents to work with me and I thought you know what why don't I put this as a book so that parents can at least get that part of the process going and that's that was the whole reason for making the book.

Rick Barron (08:09)

Well, that must have taken quite some time to pull all that together. I mean, all those states.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (08:12)

It did. It's it and the updated version. Yes. But I will, I am happy to say that there are more doctors now, functional medicine doctors working with kids with autism than there were in 2020. Many have retired. So that was really sad to see, but it's good to see that there are other people stepping in.

Rick Barron (08:37)

So, kind of going into the world of when a parent discovers that their child has autism, what are some of the initial questions that they bring to you? And I think, I guess I'm having thought about this prior to our discussion right now. I can understand what the parent may be thinking, but I've always wondered what does the child think as they're sitting there with their parent talking to this doctor?

So, if you could, Dr. Lyons, could you describe maybe a scenario of what that would entail?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (09:15)

Sure. So, after doing this for so many years and seeing kids change, I am very confident in that, regardless of the child's behavior, so they might be jumping or stimming or not paying attention, or they're not able to speak, I am quite confident that they can understand me at any level that I'm talking at. So many times, kids with autism are just written off as well. They can't express what they know, so they don't know anything. And that's not true. So, as the kids get healthier and healthier, one aspect that I love is when parents are like, how did he know that? I've heard that so many times. 

So, when I have any conversations with parents, and the kids are present, I typically talk to the kids, even when the parents are like, well, he doesn't, I'm like, no, he understands, trust me. He understands that a lot of times when the child comes closer and is hanging out, you know, and I'm not necessarily looking for a specific answer from the child, but I'm talking to the child as if they could answer, as if they are listening. And a lot of times they really start to show some abilities and show interest that then sparks the parents, they're like, okay. 

So as to what they're thinking sometimes, I mean, afterwards, sometimes kids will tell me, you know, when we met with this one doctor over there, he was talking about, you know, putting me on this drug or that drug. And, you know, I got very upset. And that's when, you know, sometimes a kid might have a meltdown. And then the parent, who is very intuitive, can start to say, he didn't like what the doctor was saying. So, there's always this question: Is my child's behavior trying to communicate something? So that's one difficulty that parents have, but kids with autism typically are communicating just in different ways than what we're expecting.

Rick Barron (11:37)

So, trying to put myself in a child's body and hearing my parent speak with me, knowing that I have autism, they could be wondering, why are you talking to me in that manner? Why aren't you talking to me like we're just having a regular conversation? Because I think for the parents, I'm sure they want to be proactive and careful in how they approach their child in that matter. And I'm just thinking out loud here, putting myself into the shoes of the parents and why they may be taking that approach with good intentions, but only to discover that when they come to your office, just talk to them like you're just talking to me. And I think that's a big discovery for people, you know.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (12:25)

Well, many kids with autism say that as one of the things they first start to communicate is you don't have to talk to me like I'm a baby. But it's so hard as a parent and I know for me that was like a lesson I joke around. 

It was a lesson that I had to learn as well, where it was like, all right, I can't treat you based upon your level of expression because that's what we do, right? When someone talks to us. You can even think of when an older person has something like a stroke, where speech is impacted, right? 

You start to maybe talk a little slower and maybe they might need it but maybe not right and you're a little bit more careful with your words and you might even notice you’re the tone of your voice is like a little bit higher because you're a little unsure right so when the feedback isn't coming back then parents and people do behave a bit differently

Rick Barron (13:39)

So, what causes autism? I mean, you had to put it in layman's terms, how could you describe that?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (13:51)

So, there's not one particular thing that causes all autisms. So, autism is a spectrum.

And on one side of the spectrum, you might have someone who's able to speak but not have back and forth conversation. They might speak very deeply about a topic they're interested in and then not much on anything else. Or maybe they're only able to say like, I want water. I'm hungry, that kind of thing. If you ask them, how was your day? There might be absolutely nothing. 

So there are a variety of ways speech can look. And maybe that child can dress themselves and as they get older, cross the street, maybe drive a car. And on the other end of the spectrum, you have more profound autism, so that might be someone who never speaks, who has difficulty dressing, might not even be able to cut their food, so they can't cook their food, they can't cut their food, they can feed themselves maybe.

And so that is all autism. So, trying to come up with a single thing that is common and a cause of all that variety is really difficult. So, the way I think of it is more in terms of risks. So, there are well-established studies that talk about what causes an increased risk of autism. And there's a lot, there certainly is a lot, but then it also makes sense because then those are the areas that parents can focus on to improve health. And when health is improved, then a lot of these barriers, let's say to speech, can be removed, and then the child is able to do things with their body, which they always wanted to do, right? And then their body is finally not limiting them. So that's really how I think of autism.

And it's just really difficult to try and explain autism by one single thing, one single cause. I don't think that will ever really happen.

Rick Barron (16:03)

So having said that, a question that I have is then, I guess sometimes a parent or the parents will come in and say, OK, so give me a checklist of how I can just fix this. But you're saying that, there's various degrees. So, not one list, per se, quote-unquote, is going to fix this all. I think along with that, I guess they're probably expecting, can we solve this within six months to a year? Yeah. So, I imagine you've had many stories like that.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (16:36)

Tomorrow, no, tomorrow. yeah, of course. And I myself, I wanted to resolve things as fast as possible. And I would always feel like, I'm not doing enough. I'm not going fast enough. And when I work with parents now, it's really, let's go as fast as everyone is still smiling.

That's the pace you need to go because this is your experience as a parent. So, you don't want the, you know, these 20 years or so to be misery thinking that, we're just never to where we want to be. And then this is your child's childhood. You don't want them to feel inadequate. You don't want them to feel like there's something wrong with them. Right.

There's a difference between something wrong with their soul, their character, their essence, or there's something with their body that's not functioning. So that's really important for a parent to keep in mind when they're talking about things with their child, it is not as if they themselves, their child, you know, there's something that needs to be fixed. Something with their body, yes, but not with them and who they are, because kids then internalize a lot, and we don't want to impact their confidence. They already have enough challenges that we want their confidence to grow, not to be hindered by thinking that something is wrong with them.

Rick Barron (18:11)

Sure, because I have to imagine sometimes some parents may look at their child thinking, well, he or she does not understand what's going on, but really they do understand. And it's, it's, it's, I think it's kind of an enlightening period to, you know, and I think to your point, one needs to take that step of, I'm going to be talking to you as a regular person.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (18:24)

They do. Oh, goodness.

Rick Barron (18:41)

I'm not going to, okay, here's what we're going to do today. And I would be on the other end thinking, okay, why are you talking to me that way? I'm just a regular person.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (18:50)

Yeah. Yeah. Why are you talking to me like I'm stupid? Why are you talking to me like I don't understand? 

And just imagine if you're a child, that's your life. And everyone is talking to you, maybe even at school. Maybe at school, you're only doing like kindergarten stuff for 10 years, for 15 years, right? Because there's difficulty in speech, there's difficulty in motor planning, so pointing to certain things. So, if you're limited in how you can communicate, people just assume you're not comprehending. And then that's your entire life, not just your parents, but that's everyone who's talking to you like that.

Rick Barron (19:32)

Now I know of a couple who have an autistic child, and at first they didn't really pick up on it. And it wasn't until their parents noticed something whenever they would take care of the child. And at first blush, they thought, “I don’t think it's anything, but then the mother said, I think the child could be somewhat autistic.

And as they would point out some of the observations to their son, he became, I don't know what you're talking about. That's not true. And I don't know whether or not he just refused to accept it or he just didn't notice it. And I think for the parent grandparents, they were feeling very, I don't want to interfere with your life but I'm just wanting to offer my insights of what we've noticed. And you might want to check it out. I mean, how do you get those two together, the parents and then the grandparents, to say, here's how we could work together to work with this person who definitely has some issues with autism.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (20:32)

Right?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (20:58)

So, grandparents are very important to be in the lives of their grandchildren, for sure. Especially with autism. So, in 2017, there was research done, and grandmothers who frequently saw their grandchildren had an autism diagnosis occur five months sooner than kids who did not have grandparents involved. 

And for grandfathers who were involved and frequently saw their grandchildren, the autism diagnosis was received four months sooner. So, it's definitely important for grandparents to be involved because they can see a child's development progression or lack thereof, because they're seeing them frequently, but not every day. 

A lot of times with parents, you're in the everyday, and you're just trying to get out the door and all this stuff, so you might not have the time to really think about, is my child progressing the way they should be and maybe a pediatrician hasn't said anything. Some pediatricians are very proactive and others not so much. So it does become a little bit of a awkward situation potentially if a grandparent sees certain things and then it's time to talk about it. So first off, I would encourage it, so if a grandparent is listening to this, definitely...figure out what's the best way to have that conversation. 

And so, it's an important conversation. So, these are conversations you want to think about. You don't want to just kind of, all right, let me just off the cuff, go, you know, call them up. Maybe your adult child is, you know, cooking dinner. It might not be the right time to have that conversation. And then that conversation goes sideways. So, or bad, right? So, we don't want that. It's an important conversation. So, if a grandparent is noticing certain things, figure out the best way to have that conversation. And so, it's an important conversation. 

So, these are conversations you want to think about how they want to approach that with their child, with their adult child, and then figure out when would be an optimal time.

And you might say, could we just have maybe 10, 15 minutes, let's set it aside where you and I can just talk. There's something really important to me that I want to talk to you about. And then with the grandparent talking to the adult child, it really depends on the relationship that is there.

So sometimes there's some contention. Sometimes there might not be a closeness. However, there might be a desire to have closeness, right? So, relationships can all look different for sure. And it would just be important for the grandparents to approach it with as much honoring grace so to also think of the flip side and be like wow, okay if I was raising a child and my mom Came and talked to me about autism. How would I make sure? That it doesn't sound like I'm blaming them or that I'm saying they didn't do a good job, because we as kids would want to do a good job, and sometimes we're sensitive, right? We talked to our parents and all of a sudden and like we're 50 and we're 10 years old again.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (24:33)

I want to talk to you about something I've been seeing and this has no impact on how I think you are as a parent. I think you are doing an amazing job, and I know the world is different from when I was parenting, so I acknowledge that, but I just want you to know whatever I say, I do not mean for it to be rude. 

I do not mean it to somehow feel like criticism and in some relationships, you have to say that out front, just so that everyone's on the same page. Other people, if they have a really close relationship, maybe not, but still when you're having such a delicate conversation as this, I think it would be important to really set the stage so that your adult child is not defensive.

Rick Barron (25:19)

Have you ever had Dr. Lyons where you had the parents and the grandparents come in together to talk to you about how we can bridge these conversations to be more productive in a positive manner, but also for the benefit, not just for the parents and the grandparents, but for the child itself?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (25:44)

Yeah, yep. So, I have, I have been in the middle of many an awkward conversation where it's everyone wants the best for that child, but then there's a lot of maybe history kind of rolled up and bunched and so it's really about focusing on what typically everybody wants, which is the best for the grandchild. 

It just becomes some difficulty in how we go about that? How do we prioritize? And how do we make sure that adult children don't feel like they failed? So I didn't have my parents telling me I failed as a parent, but I felt like I was failing as a parent just because my daughter is doing all these things and parenting was, I'm not being successful whatsoever. Even if you don't have a parent telling you that you're failing, an adult child who is parenting might already be feeling that. So, it's just important to keep in mind.

Rick Barron (26:55)

Is that somewhat the first knee-jerk reaction from the parents who have an autistic child that I failed? What did I do wrong? 

Theresa Lyons, PhD (27:05)

What I did wrong is definitely at the top. So, what did I do wrong? Or I knew I shouldn't have done that. Right. 

So sometimes, it has to do with the child having an infection and needing an antibiotic, or the child knows, something that the parent decided, yes, let's do it. Around that time, if parents see the regression, then they blame themselves. And so, they're like, I knew I shouldn't have done that. So those definitely are the top two initial kinds of emotions. There's a lot; there's certainly anger and grief right now.

Now the parenting experience is going to be totally different. It's going to be different than your friends. So sometimes later on you'll start to feel jealousy like, they're having that ideal parenting experience that I thought I was going to have and I don't have anything close to that. that there just there can be a lot of emotions that parents experience all throughout this journey.

Rick Barron (28:09)

There can be lot of emotions that parents experience all throughout this journey. Sure. And I think the emotions even escalate as the child's getting older and the parent has to wonder what can I do to help my child, you know, make it through this world difficult as it is today. 

And it's not getting any better to have to worry and as you say, not feel like I've let them down, didn't give them enough guidance to eventually make it into this world that they can somewhat survive on their own, if you will. 

I know of a mother whose child, it was very difficult, but by god, she stayed with him all the way through his adulthood. Now he's working for a company that offers a program for autistic people and he's working on computers, which he just absolutely loves. He's earning a salary. you know, paying taxes as he says, but you know, he's, but he's, he's learned that I can make it, you know, I can make it in this world. And I think that's where I think a lot of parents maybe still have that fear, even though, okay, we're doing okay, but sooner or later,

Theresa Lyons, PhD (29:14)

Awesome

Theresa Lyons, PhD (29:19)

Hahaha

Rick Barron (29:36)

Does that child walk out the door and do their own thing or do I need to be with them for the rest of their life? I mean, that must be go through their minds quite a bit.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (29:47)

Certainly. I mean, that's the goal of parenting: to launch your child out into the world. And so parents do get worried and concerned, or I'm going to be the caregiver for the rest of my life. How is that going to be? Do I want to be that? Right. So, you can start to get a lot of emotions just over that itself. And things can go well with your child. But if the parent is stuck on that, their emotions get stuck and really color the child's journey. So, it's something that autism parents deal with because not every child with autism becomes independent. That is certainly the case, but there's a lot of beauty in which people with autism who still need caregivers for the rest of their life. There's a lot of beauty and also independence that can be created. So many kids want to still go off and get their own apartment, right? And okay, maybe they need a caregiver and the parent has to hire certain things and put in different program supports like that.

Like the gentleman you were talking about, right? He probably always wanted to get a job, right? That might have been a dream of his. Kids with autism have dreams, and they have dreams just like everybody else does, like wanting to buy a house, or wanting to get married. Sometimes I want to have kids, I want to have a job, I want to have friends, I want to have a pet, right? And so sometimes these things aren't as easy, but it's still worth going towards.

Rick Barron (31:29)

Sure. Now you called out that through your studies that autism isn't always lifelong. Think that's something you discovered as you were doing your investigation. What does that entail? mean, I think when people hear that, you know, like, oh, good, there's hope, but it may not work for everyone. But what are some of those attributes that could lead to that? Where autism? isn't a lifelong issue.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (32:00)

So, a lot of it has to deal with health.

And so the diagnosis is based on observation and parents really turn to functional and integrative medicine to say, why is my child not speaking? For an example, there's something called cerebral folate deficiency. 

And for kids with autism, about 70 % of kids also have cerebral folate deficiency, which you can do a specialized blood test to determine if the child has autoantibodies in their brain that prohibit folate from the normal transport routes. And if they do have these antibodies, then they need a prescription that is the same folate, but it just gets transported in a different way. Right? So, there's many ways to resolve folate deficiency, but you've got to know if that's an issue for your child. So, this is how kids with autism quote unquote get better, right?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (33:03)

They don't just kind of grow out of it, but it really stems from looking at their health and Looking at it in a root cause way so not just they're not speaking. That's just gonna be the way they are the rest of their life more like they're not speaking. Okay, what could be impacting that? All right. Let's look at cerebral folate deficiency. Okay. What else can we look at? Well, are they getting adequate hydration? How is their digestion? Are there any gut infections? Have they been been exposed to any toxins, right? So, these are the things that parents really look at.

Rick Barron (33:45)

Could that be a book?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (33:47)

It could, yeah, but definitely that will be maybe the next book.

Rick Barron (33:51)

No, that's interesting because I didn't know that. I think just hearing about some of the things that people could address, at least try to minimize it as best as they can. I would imagine there's a lot of people out there with autism kids who don't even or are not even aware that, there is some hope to where you can work towards minimizing.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (34:26)

Well, the same to me. But I learned that when I did the deep dive into, OK, what is autism? So, we have this diagnosis. What can I do? I can't just I can't just sit back and do nothing. That is not my nature. I love chemistry. I know chemistry. need to understand her chemistry as to what's going on. And so that was one of the publications that really shifted things for me. 

Back then, it was 10 percent of kids with autism who lost their autism diagnosis and they called it an optimal outcome. And so, you know, I reached out to the researchers, really talked to them. I wanted to really understand that. And then once I was confident that that is a realistic outcome that parents are having, then I needed to really know more and more about this. And, you know, a decade earlier, that number was 5%. And now, currently, a decade later, that number is 37%. 

So, the number certainly is increasing. People are getting a lot more knowledgeable. They're getting more focused on the body. So again, it's not about saying there's something wrong with the child or something wrong with the way they think or the way they do things. No, it's we want to make sure their body is really functioning optimally so that they're not restricted. The autism diagnosis comes from when things are restricting the child from participating in life, and as a parent, nobody wants that.

Rick Barron (35:55)

Wow, I never would have thought of that. Now, you mentioned, maybe I'm not sure if I heard it from you or I was doing my research, but what does non-persistent autism mean?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (36:09)

So that's what the researchers now have classified autism. So with the number being 37%, the number's getting quite large. You can't really call it an optimal outcome anymore just because it's the size of that number. So what researchers are starting to understand, and this is like this is really cutting edge, is they're starting to classify autism as non-persistent autism and the still classical essence of autism that remains.

And that's something new that researchers had to come up with new terminology to explain this large number of kids who are, you know, regaining their health and not needing additional support.

Rick Barron (37:00)

Gosh. So when a parent comes to you with their child, what's your approach to getting them comfortable, Dr. Lyons, to talk about this topic? Because I'm sure it's just an overwhelming moment in their life that they're coming to you or another doctor in hopes of how do I begin? How do I even approach? How do I talk to my child? As we said earlier, I mean, and from what you've been describing thus far, this is a very complex medical diagnosis. 

You will, I'm sorry, I'm not a doctor. I'm just kind of thinking out loud here. I mean, what's the approach? What's that you've taken and what might parents want to think about asking you when they come to visit for the first time?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (38:00)

So, when parents come to me, they always wanna know the why. So same as with me, I wanna know why is this going on. They're very focused on what is it that they need to do? What is the actual issue relating to their child's health? And then we can get focused on doing different functional medicine tests to really quantify, okay, this is what the issue is. 

Because so many times parents do maybe some basic blood work or something like that. And doctor's like, nah, it's fine. It's fine. It's autism. There's going to be problems. It's just, you know, that's just the way it is. So when parents come to me, they know me as a chemist. They know me as an educator because I've been on YouTube over 10 years. And on YouTube, what I do is I would take one scientific publication and I would explain it. 

And I would explain it in the sense come to me they know me as a chemist they know me as an educator that this is what the research is and then parents have to go a step further and really start to analyze is that relevant to my child and that's the part that gets kind of frustrating because there could be some great research right.

Rick Barron (39:10)

Hmm.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (39:17)

But it doesn't apply to everyone. So, parents have to become very discerning in the sense of, all right, let me make sure I only do things that could actually benefit my child. And so how do I start to think about that? What am I trying to analyze before I do something? I don't want to just try anything and see what happens, right? Because that will get exhausting and that's not a good strategy. So when parents come to me, it's really about wanting to understand the chemistry, the science and really have a good understanding of what they need to do, what to do, and then how to retest and make sure things are going in a beneficial way.

Rick Barron (40:01)

Wow. So, what about for the grandparents? I mean, here's the parent and there's the grandparents. And I think as we said earlier, you've had opportunities where I believe you said you spoke into both sides in the same conversation. But it has to be, I can only imagine there's been moments where, you know, in your mind you're thinking, excuse me

Theresa Lyons, PhD (40:18)

Yeah, Yep, many times.

Rick Barron (40:30)

Well, I think I'm trying to help them, but they don't seem to be wanting to accept that direction of help. And when you hit that roadblock, how do you try to pivot to then say, if I understand where we're going with this, you seem to have these issues, how do we diffuse them to where we're both going down the same path in a positive manner?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (40:58)

So that comes to having a discussion of what are the top three things related to autism that would improve either the child's life or the family life. So come up with a list of three. This way you can have a grandparent put in one, parent put in another, and then there's kind of like a mutually agreed upon one or something along those lines. So you have your top three things and then you just use science to really say, okay, how can we resolve that?

You take out the emotion that is tied to, this is what I think you should do. This is, it's really, what do we need to focus on for the child? And then once you have those symptoms, just use science.

Rick Barron (41:48)

Right and I think in part what I liked about your approach is that you do a lot of research and I think you gather the data to substantiate you know what you're talking about I think that's for some people they don't miss the boat they're quick to make judgments but until they hear from yeah and I think until they hear for someone like you know the porch light goes on.  Now I get it. Now I understand.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (42:21)

Well, see, I don't have many opinions, right? So, like when parents come to me, I don't have, know, this is what everyone should do. No, no, no, not at all. I will teach you the science. Let's focus on your child. Well, those are the symptoms. These are the symptoms. This is what needs to be focused on, but it's not my opinion. So, doctors, they end up practicing based upon their opinions and their theories. And so that is something that I don't do because I'm not practicing on any of these kids. I'm more the strategist. So, I have the information. I can teach you the information I have as to whether it applies to your child. 

But then the rest is up to you to say, all right, now let me get a doctor who focuses on that way, on that problem. I've seen a lot of things where parents go to a doctor because they've heard great things and it doesn't go well. 

And many times it's because that doctor is very good at particular things. Let's say that a doctor is very good at mitochondria, right? And what if this child with autism? Mitochondria is not their top issue, right? Maybe it's more of a gut issue and so parents will go and the doctor will say, okay Well, let's do the mitochondria and let's just focus there and there's a mismatch So that happens commonly whether it's the parent has an opinion as to what the cause is the grandparent is like no It's really this.  

This is what I believe. And I don't get involved in any of that. This is what I believe. I understand the science, I read the science, and then I explain the science. And I teach people how to critically think for themselves as to what is most important for their child. Because that's what is important. You can't just do the same thing for everyone with autism. It just doesn't work.

Rick Barron (44:28)

Yeah, that's true. I mean, I think you called out too that, you know, people who come to you are just, quote unquote, hungry for clarity. 

Theresa Lyons, PhD (44:37)

And they don't just want to do things. They want to understand why. They really seek information and they trust science, not blindly, but they trust science and value science being the guide.

Rick Barron (44:55)

Yeah. And I think in this world of wanting instant gratification, I think people are sometimes I think they come to you and say, well, why can't you give me something I can solve this, you know, in a couple of months. And I think you're kind of missing the point here because I, know, you can, can provide the clarity, can provide the data, but until they understand, you know.

Rick Barron (45:51)

Maybe I am, and I just can't, I can't get out of this mode. So that has got to be extremely difficult. So, but what has been the most beautiful moment that hit you that made you realize this is something wonderful? I'm so glad that I'm doing this and I'm helping people at least provide them some clarity as to how they can best approach this. But what was that one tangible moment that said, I'm glad I did this. I'm glad I went down this road. Yes, my child got autism, but as a result, look at the people that I'm helping get started.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (46:37)

I have that many times a day. I love what I do. mean, just earlier today, I was doing a live stream with one of the coaches that works on the Navigating Autism Platform. And what we were doing was we were role playing when a parent feels like I'm just failing my child. That was the scenario we were role playing. And there was a parent who was in the comment section and really saying, I'm so glad I'm catching you live. This is something that is always on my mind. I always feel like I'm not doing enough for my child. 

And they got to see me kind of explore that because I definitely felt that many times, right? So, I'm not pretending in the sense of I never experienced it. And I've worked with many parents who've had that feeling and how do we get them out of it? So, you know, this mother was so grateful to see the dynamic of how you have that experience, that thought, and be coached professionally out of it, like start to climb out of the hole. And it's not in the sense of, let's just get positive. The autism journey is long. So, you've got to have a really strong mindset because you need that for months, right? 

And so, you know, the comments that she was making just reaffirmed for me why I do this because I'm helping her not have the same struggles that I did And then you know another parent was commenting about how they have this kind of thought all the time as well And so it's bringing light to an emotional side of the autism parenting journey that is often kind of brushed aside and a lot of times we have shame we don't want to admit that this kind of thought all the time as well. And so it's bringing light.

It might not feel successful, right? Nobody wants to really admit that. But it's a reality of the autism journey, feel successful right now. It's a reality.

That's just today. But there are so many times when kids start to get better and they start potty training themselves. Or the child handed back the iPad because they were like, I'm tired. I want to go to bed. Mom's like, what? Sleep used to be a problem. We used to not sleep for months and months. And now my child is healthier. And they're starting to realize, I'm tired. I want to go to bed. You know, right. There are these amazing things that happen all the time. 

And I've experienced that so many. That's why I can confidently say that their child is comprehending things at an age level appropriateness. It's just the expression that is really lagging behind. But once certain things are done, and that can start to catch up, then it's just amazing what the kids know, and they've learned all along, and their character because you've got to remember these are kids who might not have felt good every day, right? 

They might have had a stomach ache every day or a headache every day or joint pain or a whole variety of things, but yet they still got up and were determined to participate in life as much as possible. Even if they had meltdowns and their difficulties, right? They get up the next day and be like, all right, let's try it again. So, I have moments like this. It's just all the day, the time. And I'm very thankful now because I'm on the flip side. So I went through all those difficult days, but now my mission is really how can I help parents navigate through those days and feel those emotions but not get stuck in them.

Rick Barron (50:46)

Right. Because I think, you know, when you talk about what you went through, Dr. Lyons, it's something that you can then share with others. Like, well, okay, I had that moment, but here's some insight as to how you can deal or handle that type of situation. And I know of a person who has autistic girl, beautiful child, and now and they will share videos on things that they do on the outside, go to parks, whatever. And their interaction is so genuine that honestly you wouldn't think there was something wrong with the child. It's like they're laughing, they're giggling, they're playing. And I feel like, you know, to your point, that's how it needs to be. So, it helps the child understand as you're growing together.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (51:28)

Mm-hmm.

Rick Barron (51:41)

You know, hey, we're in this together. So, I mean, that's how you have to look. I mean, it's hard. It's difficult. I think some people just don't expect it. But sometimes life will deal you a deck of cards that you weren't expecting. 

Theresa Lyons, PhD (51:44)

Yeah, it's a partnership.

Definitely. For sure. This was not what I was expecting. This is just, yeah, there's ever since the autism diagnosis, there's pretty much nothing in my life that I'm doing that I planned. So I'm just going with it now.

Rick Barron (52:13)

No, that's good. No, no, that's, that's wonderful that you're doing all this and, I can tell that it's not work per se. It's a passion of love. Just hearing how you're describing it and why you enjoy doing it. And I think for many people, you're the type of individual that they're looking to find to help them. 

So if there was one, I know, glory point, Dr. Lyons, for people to walk away with from this conversation and what you've been sharing, what would you want to tell them?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (53:02)

I would tell them to trust their intuition. So, most parents have this little voice that when they see their child, they're like, I know they're in there or I know they can be doing more, there's this little voice and I really would like parents to trust that voice because it's right. There's so much improvement that can happen regardless of whether someone retains an autism diagnosis or not. There's so much with health that can be improved that when their intuition is telling them, there's something else really to go with that and to follow that intuitive voice.

Rick Barron (53:48)

Oh, that's great. So, I usually end our conversation with some speed round questions. I provided them to you, and over the past few, some of the answers I've been getting from some of my guests have been quite funny, quite surprising. So, okay, let's go with the first one. 

What was the best live concert you ever attended and why?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (54:06)

Okay. I don't know if I can guarantee it'd be funny, but we'll see.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (54:18)

I'm actually not a live concert person. I don't think I've ever paid for a ticket to go to live concert.

Rick Barron (54:31)

How about to a theater play or something like that?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (54:35)

A theater play. Let’s see. It's been a long time. So, this is what happens to autism parents. We prioritize our children and, this is definitely something I talk about how parents have to take time for themselves. I used to go to play, I went to the, okay, I went to the ballet, was in Manhattan.

A summer goes, and I went to Midsummer Night Dream at the New York City Ballet. And that I definitely enjoyed. And I remember thinking, you should do this more often, because you like this. So that would be the most recent one. And it was enjoyable. It definitely was.

Rick Barron (55:20)

Well, good, that's great. What do wish you had more time to do? Maybe go to a concert?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (55:25)

Maybe. More free time. If I had more time, what would I do? I really do love my work, so I would probably say get better on social media and work more. But outside of work, I do like to paint.

Rick Barron (55:34)

Hmm.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (55:47)

It's something that I do only every once in a while. I do oil painting and I never took any classes or anything like that. When you can get into that flow state, and then just like tap into just an artistic expression. Usually, it's a snapshot of something in my past. So, the last one that I was working on, it's not finished, is like a campfire. And it's by the lake, but it's dark. So, painting the lake.

This really dark blue color, and like the rest of the night, blackish, but you had to make sure that it couldn't all be black, so it was kind of fun to play around with the colors that way, so I definitely wish I had more time to do that. It is a flow state, like staying in a flow state, just being, like, all right, let's not overthink it, let's just go with it.

Rick Barron (56:38)

It's very therapeutic, isn't it?

Rick Barron (56:48)

It's like my wife and I took some watercolor classes online, and I've learned that painting with watercolors is not forgiving; you make one mistake, you're done.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (57:00)

No. That's why I picked oil paint. I have a lot of oil. My first oil painting that I did took like two weeks to dry because I had painted over and over and over. Lots of mistakes.

Rick Barron (57:13)

So, what was your first paying job?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (57:20)

The first paying job was babysitting. I mean, obviously, that was off the books. wasn't, if you're talking about like my first. My first, you know, job was babysitting. But then, if you want to know, like where I was paying taxes and all that, it was when I was 18, I worked in Manhattan at a Japanese trading company, and their chemicals department always had chemistry, and I worked on importing and exporting chemicals all throughout the world. It was just amazing. I learned a lot

Rick Barron (57:56)

Wow, that must have been a fascinating job.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (57:59)

Yep, it was.

Rick Barron (58:02)

So, here's one for you. If your child wrote a book about you, what would the title be?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (58:11)

Oh, my goodness. Oh, she's 16, so it fluctuates. Like, I'm the best person in the world one minute, and then the next minute I can't even breathe right. Oh, yeah.

Rick Barron (58:24)

Well, there's your title.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (58:34.237)

Maybe she always believed in me, even when I didn't. Because that's something my daughter tells me a lot. Just at her lowest moments, there were times when she was like, you really believe in me. I'm like, of course I do. You're just having a bad moment. It's all right. Feel it. You'll be fine tomorrow. So maybe something along the way.

Rick Barron (58:56)

So, you're doing a great job as a mom then.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (58:59)

I do my best. I don't know about great, but I do my best, and when I make a mistake, I own it. I'm like, listen, I messed up. I will try and do better in the future.

Rick Barron (59:10)

Okay, final question. What would you attempt to do if you knew you couldn't fail?

Theresa Lyons, PhD (59:18)

This is the way I want to live my life. Zero limits is what I would like to live my life. Anything like I would just love to not have that doubting voice that it used to be really loud. But I would just say it like everything. Not really a good answer, but that's.

Rick Barron (59:40)

Hey, that's a good answer.

Theresa Lyons, PhD (59:42)

Like literally a few days ago. I was talking to my friend about how I wanted to really think about life in zero limits, so not be concerned about that fear of failure and I used to take failure so personally and I've learned more of that growth mindset of okay if failure is teaching and it's not so personal, so, yeah, zero limits is my goal for life.

Rick Barron (01:00:14)

Okay, that's a good one. Now that's different. I've never heard anything like that before. So Dr. Lyons, I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me and to the audience about this world of autism, and that there is hope. That one shouldn't take it as failure, but you know, for lack of a better word, a learning experience that some people aren't going to go through. 

I mean, there are people who are dealing with it, and it's like, you're not the only one. There are other people out there that you can probably interact with, get some insight, you know, find people like you to discuss this. So, I think to that end, I think the audience today will walk away with a much higher degree of what autism is about and how to deal with it. Should it, you know, come into their world one day? 

One never knows. So, to that end, I thank you, Dr. Lyons, for taking the time and to our audience for taking the time to sit down with us and hear this wonderful conversation from Dr. Lyons. And to that, we'll talk to you soon.