Interview #24 Barb Demorest and Patti DeFreeuw - Knitted Knockers: A Stitch of Hope

Transcript, Sep. 24, 2025                 

Rick(00:00)

Hi everyone, I am Rick Baron, your host, and welcome to my podcast, That's Life, I Swear. My guests today are Barbara Demorest, the founder of the Knitted Knockers Organization, and Patti DeFreeuw, vice president of the organization. 

These two are the driving force behind Knitted Knockers Organization, a nonprofit that provides hand-knit breast prosthetics to women who have had breast cancer and undergone mastectomies. 

Now, the Knitted Knockers organization has blossomed into a global movement, one that has touched the hearts in all 50 states of the United States, plus 75 countries worldwide. 

Now, let me put that in perspective. There are 193 countries in the world. So, the Knitted Knockers organization is almost in half of them. Think about that.

Now the dedication from Barb and Patti has been instrumental in connecting thousands of volunteer knitters and crocheters to this cause, turning compassion into something tangible that you can hold in your hands. 

Now here's a highlight to call out, one that was really knocked over when I heard this. In July of 2025, the Knitted Knockers organization reached an incredible milestone. One million Knitted Knockers provided to women in need. Now that's one million acts of love, generosity, and community spirit. 

Now today we'll talk about how this journey began. The people whose lives transformed by a single stitch. The challenges and the triumphs along the way. And the dreams for the future. So grab a seat, get comfortable, and get ready to be inspired by Barbara and Patti, whose work reminds us that kindness can be as powerful as medicine. 

Trust me when I say their passion for what they do is very infectious. 

Please join me as I have my conversation with Barbara and Patti. Barbara and Patti, welcome to the show.

Barb (02:13)

Hey Rick, well said, well introduced. You captured the essence. Thank you.

Rick(02:15)

You’re welcome

Patti (02:16)

Yeah, thanks for the intro, Rick. That was awesome.

Rick(02:18)

Well, as I was telling Patti, I went and did some more research on your organization. And I'm just flabbergasted. That what you guys have accomplished. I think that this story is going to tell people out there what you two have accomplished, which is a lot. But before we get started, if I could ask each of you just to give me a brief overview to the audience of who you are and where you are today. 

Barb, we can start with you.

Barb (02:52)

Yeah, well, I'm Barb Demorest and I'm the founder of Knitted Knockers. That's my latest quote claim to fame, but it's not my whole life. I have two wonderful adult sons and four beautiful grandchildren. I'm a retired CPA. I'm married to a wonderful man. 55 years, we just celebrated. So that's awesome. And he has put up with a lot, trust me through the years. 

But the Knitted Knockers story, that element of my life, that season of my life began in 2011. And prior to that, I had been working full time as a CPA and working a lot. But people started saying to me, when are you going to retire? And I started thinking, retire? What am I going to do when I retire? And so I prayed this prayer. And watch out before you do that, you guys. 

I prayed to God, said, please show me your passion and purpose for this next season of life. Surely there's something for me that you can use me in that season. And so that's the beginning of my story. And I'm going to break off and let Patti share. And we'll come back to that.

Rick(04:05)

Sure thing. Patti?

Patti (04:06)

Well, hi, I'm Patti DeFreeuw, and I have been a lifelong knitter. I'm a mom of three adult children, a daughter, and two sons. I have a husband of, we just celebrated 44 years of marriage and I don't know who's put up with more, but you know, it's marriage is a, it's a wonderful thing. 

I was a Merc Rep for about 40 years. I was getting ready to retire in 2017, and I was just trying to think of what I wanted to do for my next chapter. I'd done a lot of charity and a lot of knitting, but I I just didn't know what the future was going to hold and one of my good friends and co-workers Martha, had insomnia and she was scrolling through Facebook one night, and she saw the video about Barb, which is still on our Facebook page.

It was so inspiring. I knew that we both were searching. And so she shared it with me and thought, you know, we can do this. And we looked at it. I was very touched by that video. And I've shared it with a lot of people since then. But I started, we started knitting. sent in our registration and said, we'd like to knit. And about two weeks later, we got a message saying, would you like to supply for the state of Indiana? And we went gulp. Like we had just started. It was just the two of us.

We started knitting. sent in our registration and said we'd like to knit. And about two weeks later we got a message saying, would you like to supply for the state of Indiana?

Patti (05:25)

But we thought, you know what, we can do this, and we just started contacting other knitters we knew and so forth. Anyway, fast forward got very involved and loved it, loved it, loved it. And about mid-June, Merck is very good about giving back and allowing employees to give back during work time. And they actually, if you do 40 hours for an organization, they would pay them $500. Well, that can also be a group thing.

Patti (05:50)

By that time, most of my coworkers had kind of caught the vision. I loved the passion we had around this. Most people we know had been touched by breast cancer, you know, and they wanted to help. We were trying to figure out, so my whole district, 12 people, were willing to give an afternoon to give back. And I had no idea what we were going to do, because they weren't all knitters, you know? So I reached out to Barb. I thought, you know what, I didn't even know Barb, but I reached out to her and ⁓ wanted to pick her brain to see what we could do for four hours.

People we know have been touched by breast cancer. You know, and they wanted to help. And we were trying to figure out, so my whole district, 12 people, they were willing to give an because they weren't going to immerse, you know. So I reached out to Barb; I thought, 'You know what, I didn't even know Barb.'

Patti (06:19)

And in that conversation, well, and you know, because we talked about stuff, unstuffed knockers, and maybe we could stuff knockers. We talked about writing letters of encouragement that we include in the knockers that we send out. But in that conversation, Barb said, Gosh, I have been praying to God for a volunteer to help me with my emails. I'm really struggling. And what you said, I prayed to God about it. And I thought, I do a lot of emails. thought, you know, Barb, maybe I could help. I'm getting ready to retire and that would be a fun, you know, I could see myself going from being really busy and doing tons of emails and work to nothing. I thought, let me think about it. Well, Barb could tell you, guess Barb's point of view was she never thought she'd hear from me again. She thought, well, that was nice. I'll never hear from her again.

Patti (07:12)

And I thought about it though, and the more involved we got, the more I just love this organization and I could really see myself doing this. And so I'll never forget, it was Thanksgiving. We always traveled to Pennsylvania to be with my family for Thanksgiving and in this car, because I always had my computer with me, always catching up on email, always catching up on research. Sent Barbara notes and, hey, it's me. We talked back in June. I would love to help with your emails. I'm retiring effective January 1st.

Patti (07:37)

And that started it, so I started helping with the registry, registering knitters, and then in that position, I realized there are a lot of medical clinics that need local support, and we were more passive if somebody reached out and said, Hey, I live in Sarasota, Florida, and I want to adopt a clinic. would do it, but I actively maintain a Google map that shows all the clinics.

There are 2400 clinics in the country that are providing free knockers to women in need. And so I started matching local leaders to local clinics and trying to cut down on the cost of postage because that's really one of our biggest costs, you know, is the cost of stuffed knockers. And so, I was doing that. And then Barb approached me in January. We did a conference. We did a couple of conferences together. We did some medical conferences I helped with, and she just approached me and wondered if I would take on more of a role with Knitted Knockers, and I agreed. So I think in March I became vice president. So here I am.

Rick (08:37)

Well good for you guys.

As I mentioned at the outset, I told everyone that these two have a passion that is very infectious, so get ready for a nice conversation here. So Barbara, maybe you could take us back to the moment that Knitted Knockersnot only became a vision but also how it unfolded. Where does this story begin?

Barb (09:04)

Well, you know, for those people out there first that may not even know what Knitted Knockersare, they're breast prosthetics for women who have had a mastectomy, and they're handmade by volunteers, and they are light and comfortable, and we give them away free. So that's what we're talking about today. And so, it was in 2011 when I heard the words that no woman wants to hear that I had breast cancer.

And I immediately thought, I hope I don't have to have a mastectomy. And I hope I don't lose my hair.

Well, I did have to have a mastectomy and I thought, it'll be okay. Nobody really needs to know. I was still working there, a professional woman, and I just thought, I'm gonna keep this to myself because I can be immediately reconstructed and nobody needs to really know. Well, due to complications, that did not happen. 

Barb (10:32)

Let's see, so I thought I could be immediately reconstructed, but since that didn't happen, I was facing what should I do now to look normal? And I'll never forget the voice on the other end of the line when I called the support group, the local support group, and asked what I could wear. And this nurse, she said, honey, I am so sorry, but you can't put anything on that scar for at least six weeks.

That for me was the low point of my journey. I had not cried when I learned I had breast cancer. I had not cried when I needed to have a mastectomy, but I did cry then. It was the last straw. I just wanted to be normal. I wanted to get back to life, and six weeks just seemed forever.

It was later that week when I went to my doctor and I was holding a brochure when I was in there for the traditional breast prosthetics and he said to me, said, you know, most women are not real satisfied with them. They can be hot and heavy and sticky and you can't wear them for a while. And I said, well, what am I going to do? And that man doctor, he looked at me and he said, do you knit? And I was like,  yeah, why?

Barb (11:53)

And he said, well, I've never seen one, but I've heard there's such a thing as a Knitted Knockers. He said, you might want to check it out. So I went home and I called my dear friend, Phyllis, great knitter. And I said, Phyllis, have you heard of a Knitted Knockers? And she said, no, but I'll find out. And I'm going to shorten this story to get to the essence here, but it was the following week when I went to church for the first time and I was very self-conscious. I put a sock in my bra and I put a loose fitting jacket on. didn't want anybody to see me.

And here comes Phyllis tripping into church with a Victoria's Secret bag. And she handed it to my husband and said, give this to Barb. Well, I knew what was in that bag. So I went into the bathroom at the church there, look out the most beautiful Knitted Knockers. It was soft. It was light. It was huggable. And it was made by somebody who cared, a friend. So, I peeled out that sock, I put that knocker in my bra, and I re-engaged with life. It sounds dramatic, but it's true. It changed everything. I took off that loose-fitting jacket, I went back out into the church, and I re-engaged with life. It was like Barb was back.

And so I thought, then I thought, my goodness, this is so wonderful. We need to make these for doctor's offices so they can hand them out. So they don't have to say, can you knit your own? Can you find somebody? We need to do that for them. So I'm going to pause here and just say that was the beginning of Knitted Knockersback in 2011.

Rick(13:51)

Wow. Boy, a lot of emotions are going through my head right now. When your friend brought you that Knitted Knockers and you put it inside, as you explained, did you feel like I can walk out of this room with confidence and not feel, you know, like you were hiding something, so to speak?

Barb (14:14)

Absolutely. I felt like I could get a hug from my friends. I felt like people wouldn't be looking at me like, oh, there's Barb with cancer. No, it was just Barb. Barb was back. That loose-fitting jacket, I didn't need it anymore. It was a gift of comfort and dignity. And that's what we like to share in our story is that we're bringing comfort and dignity made by caring volunteers to people. 

And when I went to my doctor, I said, If we provide these to you, would you hand them out? He was delighted. He said, absolutely. So, Phyllis and I started making them. And then I went back to my local knit group that I was part of. And I asked if they would start making them. They did. And so Knitted Knockersliterally started in my laundry room. I remember my sister-in-law and I packaging up some to take to the doctor's office, and then it was like,  my goodness, why couldn't this be done by others for their own doctor's offices? You know, this is too great to just keep to our own doctor. And so that's when I got the vision. I believe it's a God given vision to inspire and equip people to provide to their own communities this gift of comfort and dignity. 

Along the way, we struggled with keeping up with the demand. We needed to have lots of knitters and crocheters to make these. We put the pattern on a website so people could access it. Pattern's been downloaded, oh gosh, it's probably been five years since I looked at the count, and it was over a million times at that point that it had been downloaded. But we wanted to equip people to make them. So we published the patterns, both knit and crochet, and then we encouraged people to take them to their own doctors' offices.

And we knew that it was too much for any one group to do all of this. by reaching out to the incredibly giving crafting community and engaging them and inspiring them and then also equipping them to make them, we were able to put together this. I haven't used this word in this context before, but basically this army of volunteers reaching out to their own communities in this loving and caring way.

It's gone so far beyond my wildest imagination, and Patti, you can share the numbers maybe where we're at, you know.

Patti (16:53)

Gosh, I'm going to have to look that up, but well over a million, obviously, admitted knockers. We've got 2,402 medical clinics. We've got over 6,000 knitters and crocheters and groups. I'm going to have to look at them. many are groups. So, it's probably more than that. 

Rick(17:09)

6,000?

Barb (17:12)

And many of those are groups, not just individuals. Those are people that are registered with us.

Patti (17:20)

But as you said, Rick, 75 countries, it's just beyond what you can even imagine.

Rick(17:28)

Can we touch upon that, the 75 countries that you have thus far, how did you get the word out that it has reached such a size that it is today? Did you set up a campaign or what did you do?

Barb (17:43)

Well, no, no, this whole thing has grown organically. That's what's so incredible. We have not had connections with media or with, ⁓ you know, methods of getting the word out except for going to yarn shows to reach out to knitters, going to medical conventions to reach out to doctors. As far as the international one, I can point back to a very moment when I got a phone call from Philippa from Wand, and she had reached out and ordered some Knitted Knockersfrom us. 

At that time we had created a website where people could go online and order their free Knitted Knockerseither, you know, they put in their size, their color, ⁓ and whether they needed single or pair, and we would mail them to them. And at that time we could mail them anywhere in the world, and we did. 

So, Philippa was the head of the breast cancer. I'm so uncomfortable. So she thought these would be wonderful. And she called me and she says, Barbara, she says, do you think that this would work in Rwanda? And I said, I always have thought that in a hot climate, in a third world country, that this would be a wonderful solution because you can swim in them, you can wash them and, and dry them and, and wear them with regular bras. You don't need prosthetic bras. I just thought it would be great. 

And she says, well, will you come and teach us how to make them because we know how to knit and crochet but we don't know how to read your patterns. And I said, well, that's way beyond the scope of what we could do. And my husband had just been saying to me, this was about five years into our journey, he's been saying to me that you're working so much. 

I retired from the paying job, but I was working harder than I ever did for a paycheck. He says, when are you gonna to cut back and so I had tried to cut back and so I said to Philippa, no we couldn't come but we can send you some Knitted Knockers and she said no we want to make them ourselves for the women of our country and so I said well I'll talk to my husband and when I shared with him about the silicone prosthetics being so heavy and blah blah blah he says Barbara, you have to go. And I go, well, that's not cutting back. 

And he said, I know, but you have to go. And I said, well, we'll have to pay for it ourselves because we're nonprofit, but we don't have any corporate sponsors, and that's beyond what we could do. That’s okay. I'll work another year before I retire. You need to go. So, with that, that direction, we did end up going to Rwanda and there's a whole bigger story with that. But, I don't know if you want that now or if you want to.

Rick(21:17)

Well, hold that thought. I mean, I want to come back to that. 

I guess the question I have for both of you is, how did you come up with the, well, how did your friend come up with the pattern? And then secondarily, as you've been providing these Knitted Knockers to, the women who have gone through this, you know, serious agony of breast cancer.

Can you share with us their reactions to what you have pulled together? Because like you, Barb, I'm going to be honest with you. I got little bit choked up when you were talking about what you felt in that room when you were changing. You know, my wife knows I wear my emotions on my sleeve. So, I'm going to try and fight it here. But you hit a nerve. 

But what was the reaction? Well, let's talk about the pattern first, if we would. How did that come about? And how did you know that was the right pattern? And the material, if you will.

Barb (22:24)

That's a really good question because my doctor obviously had heard of Knitted Knockers, but he had not seen them. And so, I remember on my recovery bed thinking I needed to find the person who posted that pattern. It was on a website, and it was called Knitted Knockers. And so I tried to reach out to them, but nobody was manning the website. It was defunct. But I sleuth really hard and I came up with the creator.

She did not create Knitted Knockers; it was a woman in Canada who had created Titbits. Burl Sang was her name and she sold them, but she also gave the pattern free for anybody that wanted to use them to give them away. 

Barb (23:42)

So, Brooke Singh had posted the pattern and it was called Titbits. And then this young woman in Maine had a yarn shop and she started making them and giving them away. And she posted the pattern online and her little group there of knitters decided they should come up with a catchy name and they did. 

They came up with Knitted Knockers. So, when I spoke to her, I said, can I help you? Because I would love to be able to bring these to the doctor's office and she said she was sorry that she was unable to continue to do it. 

She doesn't have a yarn shop anymore. And when I asked her, I said, can I take the name and run with it? And she was delighted. And so that was back in 2011. That was the story of the pattern. And we've since revised it. We've added a crocheted pattern, but that catchy name, Knitted Knockers, I mean, either love it or you hate it, but there's nobody that's very neutral on it.

Rick(24:43)

So, so Patti, maybe you can take this question and, I don't know if you've, if you've been in the role or in a situation where you've been there where women have received this product, but what's been their reaction to, like, wow, someone actually has given me something that gives me confidence. I can walk out the door now without feeling self-conscious if you will. What reactions have you seen?

Patti (24:43)

You know, women are so grateful and we hear it mostly in emails. We don't often get to meet the women that we give them to. And I think people are touched that a complete stranger would do this for them. But I did get to, have a story that I'll never forget the first time I got to meet a recipient. We had become state providers. 

So we were providing for our whole state, but there was a woman that lived in our town and she had a larger size that I wasn't quite sure it was going to be big enough for fit so, I thought, you know what? I'll just reach out and see if I can personally deliver it. And I'll just never forget she was wheelchair bound. 

She was in a senior little housing area. I went to visit her. She had the door open and she said, come on in. And I had it in my hands, just like a little baby chick. And I said, here you go. And she, she literally in front of me, whipped up her shirt. She stuck it in her bra and then she started crying. She said, I haven't been able to wear a bra for about 10 years. I couldn't afford prosthetics. I just want to feel normal. And she started crying. I started crying. It's like, you know, I hugged her. It was...

Rick(26:15)

just want to feel normal. And she started crying, and I started crying. It's like...

Patti (26:21)

It was so rewarding and I've told people I knew that being involved with this organization would be rewarding, but it's beyond what I ever imagined. So again, we get letters of thanks. You know, we just surpassed the million knockers given out in July. So, we had a number, hundreds of emails that we got from, you know, the email that was sent out. And so many were from grateful recipients and spouses of grateful recipients, like husbands that and so many from great recipients and spouses of great recipients, like husbands that...like one of the women had passed away. He said, unfortunately, she's lost her battle, but it really made a difference in her life. And I just wanted to let you know that. And it's so touching, it's, it's, it's can't be put into words.

Rick(26:53)

Well, you have said, and I think, Barb, you kind of said words to the effect that the person who has received this product and starts using it feels normal again. I mean, I'm trying to let that thought sink into my head and I'm also wanting those who are listening to think about that, that a woman could feel normal again. I know it sounds like a silly question, but can one of you define what, that means?

Barb (27:40)

Well, that is a very difficult question because normal is different to a lot of people. We're all unique individuals and some people embrace being flat after double mastectomy. Some ⁓ change their sizes and to be normal, I mean, what is normal? 

I don't know how you define that. But to be able to choose to appear the way you did prior to your surgery, to be able to wear clothes like you have before that they still fit nice. That all matters. 

I just have it, I had, was looking through some testimony sheets that I had gathered through the years. used to copy and paste them into a document and thinking, I could use these some days. Well, I haven't kept that up for quite a while, but I just looked and it's 40 pages long, Single-space typing. 

And so it's hard for me to choose any out of there because they're all just very special. These are not just any ones. These are ones that are all unique and special in my mind. But this one might answer your question there.

Y'all have no idea in capital letters what receiving my Knitted Knockers have done for me. It has brought so many smiles at first and then the tears. To know that someone lovingly knit this just for me with my preferences is so touching to me. I had no idea I would become so emotional over my Knitted Knockers, but I am. I wear it over my heart and whoever you are, you have touched my heart in a way I cannot describe than the pure joy you have given me. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you. 

And to further illustrate this, when we created the website Knitted Knockers, we had this vision of offering a great product. We knew it was a great product. I could vouch for that. What we did not know is the impact it would have beyond that. 

One of them being to the recipient, the love and caring that came along with this great product. We would hear back from them or when they would be ordering their Knitted Knockers, they would tell us their story. They would say, struggled with lymphedema or the burned scarred skin from radiation. And they would tell us their story because they knew we understood and that we cared. And so, we would hear repeatedly how, as Patti expressed, their amazement that a complete stranger would care enough to do this for them.

And I had been asked through the years if we would consider selling them, know, manufacturing them and selling them for a low price because the product is so great and that maybe we could get more out that way. And when I thought about it for about 30 seconds, I went, no, we can never do that because it's more than a product. 

It is bringing together these caring volunteers, giving of their gifts and talents with their sisters that are struggling. And we all know somebody who has had breast cancer, and we just don't always know how we can help. And so here is a tangible way. So no, we're not selling these to this day. We have not sold any of those million Knitted Knockers, and we give away everything free. So yeah.

Patti (31:20)

Thank you.

Rick(31:23)

No, I think that, that principle is, is, is quite beautiful. Cause I think, I think if you let it be, you know, just manufactured, if you will, then it kind of loses the essence of, here is a stranger that took the time to create this for me rather than some robot, if you will, the, the, the essence of, of the meaning of what that product is going to do for someone's life.

To feel normal again, to feel like a human being again. I think that would be lost in a manufacturing type of environment, so to speak. I think sticking to that principle, and I know you'll never lose it, has so much more meaning to it. 

And I think,  if I may, when you started taking this product to the doctors, how were doctors responding to this? Like, like, wow, this is great. Or one was saying, I don't know if this is going to work. I mean, did you have any pros and cons when you were talking with them?

Barb (32:33)

Yes and yes, we got both.

Barb (32:36)

I'll never forget the shock I had at my first rejection. I just went tripping into a cancer center with my bag of knockers and I go, look, here I am. Isn't this wonderful? And it was like, no. So, it took a while. It took a while for the medical profession to catch the vision. And you know what really made the difference is when the women that would order them from us would get them they would take them into their doctor and they'd whip them out and say, whoa, look at these. These are great. And Patti, you were there at the NCOBC, the conference we went to and you witnessed too.

Patti (33:09)

Yes.

So many of the nurses that could share with us again, mammography tests and all of that. They could share again the patients and how someone had brought them into them. And our group too, the same way we had our American Cancer Society said, no, know, women don't like them. We tried those and I thought, what? Like we had just heard how many thousands were being sent out all over the country every month.

Patti (33:46)

And then I had my biggest hospital, same thing. You know, we had those for a while. And I finally, I said, what is it about? Why do not women not like them? And this nurse brought me back. She said, I'll show you with boxes of them. Well, it turned out they had boxes that their little charity group for their hospital was making. They were using any yarn that they had available, more like scrap yarn, stash yarn. And that taught me, I already knew that we use an approved yarns list and it's for a reason.

Patti (34:15)

These yarns have been tested. They're primarily cotton or cotton blend. They're going to stay soft. They're going to hold their shape over time. And these women didn't like those. So I said, you know, please, can I bring in what we're talking about? You know, and I brought in the ones that we had made and they could feel them and touch them and see that this is, this is something different. So it's taken a while as Barb said, and it's unfortunate that some clinics don't and these women didn't like those. So, I said, you please can I bring in what we're talking about.

So, it's taken a while, as Barb said, and it's unfortunate that some clinics don't catch the vision as easily or they really need an advocate within the clinic. know, the nurse navigators or a patient, the more they catch the vision as easily, or they really need an advocate within the clinic. The nurse navigators are patient. But the more passionate someone within the clinic is about letting people know about these, the more that that clinic uses it because they otherwise they sit in a basket or they sit in a drawer and they're not just going to leap out to the patient. know, somebody has to present them to them. So, yeah.

Rick(35:02)

Well, they're looking for proof of concept, but I think when they hear it directly from the patient themselves, saying, hey doc, I don't know how you're missing this, but this works.

Patti (35:10)

Yes. Right.

Barb (35:14)

Rick. When we were at the NCOBC, that's National Conference of Breast Clinics or something like that. 

Sorry, I spoke at that. And afterwards, one of the physicians that was there, there were about 1,000 breast clinics represented there. And this physician came over and I forget which of the significant, major hospitals she's from. I'm having a brain fade on it. But anyway, she came over and she says, my goodness. She says, I got to tell you my story. She said, I just came to work at this hospital and they brought out these ⁓ Knitted Knockers. And I said, well, what are these? And she said, I just tossed it aside just with this stain.

And she's they said no, no, no our patients just love these and she was like, my goodness They've got breast prosthetics they can buy, you know, what are we doing with these and she says but now I see it after we were able to share it the story the love the compassion the softness the lightness the multifaceted parts of this and she says I I'm going back and we are bringing those out and we're going to be embracing it. So for a long time, it was slow going, signing up medical clinics. But now we've reached that tipping point where they are contacting us and we're signing up about five clinics a week. They contact us and they say, my goodness, how do we provide these now? So we don't even have to do any reaching out to them, right, Patti? You're overseeing.

Patti (36:56)

Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. Yep. We're still reaching out, we have so many more proactively coming to us.

Rick(37:04)

That's great. So, I want to ask one more question and I promise I want to get back to the Rwanda story. How do you find the volunteers? I mean, this has to be a massive effort to get people together who not only want to volunteer but have the skill set to create these Knitted Knockers, if you will. How does that work out?

Barb (37:28)

Well, I'll jump in again here. Again, early on we realized that it does no good to create a demand for this wonderful thing called a Knitted Knockers if you can't meet it. So, the secret was to reaching out and inspiring and equipping the people to make them. So we went, we signed up for these yarn shows back then. Stitches was one of the largest. It's a conference and they had like 11,000 people that come for a weekend, and it's just a great network of knitters and crocheters. 

So, fortunately, the head of that company caught the vision and featured us as the charity. So, we were able to reach out to thousands and thousands of knitters there. And we were very intentional about using the limited resources we had, but to go out and reach out to them around the country. 

And once again, that's the crafting community is a very giving one. And honestly, there are only so many baby booties that you can make in baby blankets. So, we're always looking for a good cause. We've knit jumpers for penguins that have been oil-slicked. We've done all kinds of amazing projects. More practical would be the Warm Up America, where you knit Afghans for home.

So, I knew that if we could paint the picture, if we could reach out to the community that they would embrace this and they have. And I've been told that the average project, charity project, lasts about three years. It peaks because the knitters and the crocheters, they really get into it and then they make more than can ever be used. 

And then it just kind of peters out. Well, here we are 15 years, 14 years, excuse me, 14 years in and we are still on that upward trajectory and I believe it's because of the third element that these Knitted Knockers bring. They bring their great product for the women that are receiving them. They're a great source of comfort and dignity, they're also bring passion and purpose to the people that are making them. 

And the fact that these are not sold and nobody is profiting from them, women and men alike are making them like crazy, providing their own yarn, their own resources to do this because they know that they are making a difference. And I like to say it's a pure endeavor. Nobody's profiting and it's a tangible way that they can show that they care.

Rick(40:24)

Well, OK, trying to hold it back here. Well, you guys said this would be a very interesting story and a very emotional story. OK, let's get back to Rwanda. Where would you like to pick up there? How would you like to begin?

Barb (40:40)

Well, Rwanda is such an amazing story. When three of us made the adventure to go to Rwanda, we thought we were going to be teaching these 30 women how to make Knitted Knockers and that was going to be it. Well, Rwanda's hot and Rwanda is exhausting and Rwanda for three white elderly women was pretty amazing. We stayed in people's homes and they gathered together a group of 30 women from around the countryside and most of these women were survivors, but not like survivors we talk about. 

We talk about survivors in the concept of breast cancer survivors. Many of them were survivors of the genocide that occurred, terrible genocide in their country. They were widows or children that were growing up that had lost parents there. And so they were poverty stricken and they were part of a Rwandan women's network, which is an amazing network there that helps women. 

So anyway, they gathered them from the countryside for two days and Lorraine, JD, JP, and myself ⁓ Divided those groups up and taught them how to knit Knitted Knockers and the yarn was donated by I got some local yarn companies to donate for to take over and the knitting needles and we worked on teaching them. 

What we had been told is that they speak English, well they didn't. So we were trying to teach them how to make these Knitted Knockers without being able to read the pattern and be able to speak the language. Well was a miraculous thing but by the end of day two all but one of those women had made tremendous, tremendous Knitted Knockers.

Barb (42:47)

They'd completed them. But while we were there, there was an event there. One of the things that I had forgotten to mention previously is that there's great stigma against breast cancer in the country of Rwanda. It's a curse to lose a breast. And so consequently, many women would choose to die rather than to have a mastectomy. And that was their main course of treatment there because they don't have access to the chemotherapy and radiation there.

That we do, so with that scenario, here we had these 30 women that are knitting these breasts for women and they had put together a media event, tried to model it similar to our Relay for Life, that sort of thing. And they invited me to speak at that event. Well, media happened to be there. And so, via a translator, I shared about Knitted Knockers, and there was TV. So they did an interview of me. Now keep in mind, we don't talk about breasts, and we don't talk about breast cancer in Rwanda. 

But how can you sew these knit breasts without talking about it, so it is share the story and Philippa was there with me and so they broadcast that on national TV. Well, because of the national TV publicity, the newspaper couldn't be outdone, so we got called by the national newspaper and asked if we could do an interview. Yes, so we did an interview with them that went out on the national newspaper. 

Well because of that when I gave my speech some of the doctors that were there one of them said to me you should meet with the department of Health and I'm like, okay, and how do we do that? Well, somebody put it together. I got to meet with the Minister of Health there in the Department of Health and share the story. But also, after my speech, one of the doctors said, you need to come talk to our hospital. We need to have these in our hospital. 

And so out of that, I went and I met with the head of the hospital and he picked up one of these Knitted Knockersand he started to cry. And Lorraine was with me and we looked at each other and we were like, whoa, what's going on? And he said, just today, he said, I had a woman in here who needed to have a mastectomy and she said, no. And I said to her, it's your breast or your life.

And he says, we need these, we need these to provide to them. So he said.

When he said, need these, Philippa there with me says, you can have them. We have 30 trained women that can make them. You pay for the materials and their time to make them and we will provide them to you, but you must give them to the women free. He said, we'll do it. And that was the largest state hospital and there's five state hospitals. And he says, we want these in all five of our state hospitals. 

So out of that, we had trained 30 women to make these, gave them a living because now they were going to be paid to make these for the hospital and the women were going to be able to get these. And then I go back to our visit with the Prime Minister, not the Prime Minister, the Minister of Health.

The informal meeting we had, she said, we need to make this formal in my office. And so we did go and, and Philippa was with me and, and this woman says, this prime minister of health says, so what do you want? And so Philippa started saying, we want a second mammogram machine in the country. She said, well, you have to. And she said, no, we only have one. And she said, no.

I mean, you only have one. And the Minister of Health was sure they had two, but they didn't. So she said, okay, we'll buy you another mammogram machine. And then she said, what else do you want? And so Philippa says, I would like you to be on my board for ministering for breast cancer for women in the deal. Okay, I'll do that. And then she said, but I need somebody at my right hand to help me with women's issues because I need somebody with input. Phillip, who would you be that person? 

So, I come back to looking at these simple little breasts, handmade, by many of us are elderly, not everybody, and thinking, who would have ever imagined that it would bring breast cancer into the light in Rwanda. It would get another mammogram machine in the country. It would get the hospitals to embrace this. It would give employment to women there. I mean, just because our theme on that trip was just go. We didn't know how we were little old ladies with knitting needles, you know? But just go, just go. And so that's the essence of it.

Barb (48:14)

If you want to see the whole story, it's long, but Laureen and I are just jabbering away there on the thing. It's on our website.

Rick(48:23)

Okay, well I'll be sure to include that in my show notes. God, that's an incredible story. Did you have, God, I don't know where to begin here. Did you have any idea that when you walked through that door, this is what you were hoping to encounter? I mean, you went there just to train these ladies how to knit these Knitted Knockers, and then it just unfolded or cascaded into something.

Even more so. I mean, what did you think when you left there to come home and talking to your your cohorts like do you realize what we just did? 

Barb (49:06)

No, honestly, was exhausting. Laureen just about passed out. They were pouring Gatorade down her throat to get some fluids in, and I got food poisoning, threw up. And I honestly thought the second day, I just prayed, God, I don't think I can do it. I don't think I can go through the heat, the outdoors, the heat, the exhaustion and everything on this. So it was really just putting one foot in front of the other. And then it wasn't until later when we just go, my goodness, did that really happen?

Rick(49:43)

I have to think there are probably other countries in the world that are just like Rwanda that need that help. And for that doctor to tell that lady, it's your breasts or your life, that it comes down to that. And when he saw what you created thinking just by a split second, so to speak, we could have saved this woman's life. I just.

Barb (50:13)

One of the stories, I know we're going to be running out of time, but I have too many stories, but one that just touched me in Rwanda beyond belief was we were staying in the place of the founder of the Rwandan Women's Network. And she took us out into the field one day, drove us out there. And we met at one of these safe houses where women gather to share.

It's a safe environment for them to share stories about their life and such. And she organizes these houses. So we went in there and she introduced us as to who we are and what we're doing. And here we're probably 30 young women with their little babies and everything there. And they were there to gather to learn and everything. 

And through the interpreter, I saw this one woman's eyes just get bigger and bigger. And Laureen and I and JP were knitting as we talking and listening, you know, and they were just like zeroing in on us. Well this one woman afterwards came running up to me and she's just a tiny little thing and she just was pointing at it like me me and finally the interpreter said that her sister had a breast removed and she wanted one of these for her and I said well here and she's no no she wanted to make one.

And so I showed her and I gave her the yarn and she's like, I don't know how, you know? And so I said, can she come to the training session that we're going to have? And they said, no, she's too far away. We can't bring her, you know, this is too far. And so I just was heartbroken, but I gave her a knocker, I gave her yarn and gave her needles. 

And the next day, when the training started, she was there. She got herself there on her own and was part of my group. And at the end of two days, she, they got to choose what color they wanted. She made the most bright pink, beautiful Knitted Knockers. And I am hugging her and her holding that beautiful pink knocker there with the biggest smile of her life she made for her sister. I just, yeah.

Patti (52:25)

So cool.

Rick(52:27)
 
What about you, Patti? What other stories might you want to share? You shared one, but I'm sure you might have a million in one.

Patti (52:30)

My gosh, there's, I know there's only so many. Well, one of the other funny, so when I moved to Sarasota, I joined a weaving group and we were just talking about our past and I said, I'm actually a lifelong knitter and I'm involved with an organization called Knitted Knockers. One of the other weavers literally said, I'm really familiar with those. 

And she literally reaches in and just pulls it out and shows everybody and I thought, and that's the second time that's happened to me. I was actually at a fundraiser and a similar thing, this very dignified lady, I was at this breast cancer fundraiser and my friend who had started this mobile mammography ⁓ program for women that were underserved, she allowed me to put information about nidodonorchis out on the tables and I was doing that and this very dignified lady came up and was saying, oh my gosh, I love them, I have them, we need to make them available everywhere. And she's going on and on, and her friend said, what are you talking about? Again, we're at this breast fundraiser and she literally reaches into her beautiful dress and just pulls it out and shows her.

It's like, my gosh, it's just so cool to get it. It just shows you how women, just, as Barb said, it's like Barb's back. It just changes everything for them. It just, I can't even put it into words. And the Barb touched on this too. It brings as much joy to the makers as well. know, the feelings, the camaraderie, like joining a group, having a greater purpose other than yourself. 

The other thing that came out of our letter that we sent out is that so many recipients have now wanted to make knockers for other people. And some, it's been years since they had breast cancer and now they want to give back. one, actually one of our volunteers even said, you know, it helps me, my cancer is still not done, but it helps me think about something else and help someone else and not focus on myself. And it's like, my gosh, I want to talk about making you teary, you know, the greater purpose. So, yeah, so many stories.

Rick (54:26)

Yeah. So you've been at this for 14 years, and Barb, think as you called out, organizations such as yours hit a peak and then they kind of come down, but you're still going in the upward direction. Where do you see yourselves in the coming years? What goals might you have that you could share on? Gosh, I'm sorry, my voice, that you want to share with people like we've done this, but now we have this vision that we want to keep going and maybe branch off into doing something else other than what you're doing now.

Barb (55:11)

Well, I am excited about the future of Knitted Knockers. And unfortunately, breast cancer isn't going away.

First breast cancer, the statistic was that there would be 50,000 mastectomies a year in the US. Now it's 100,000. And I don't know that it's more breast cancer, it's just that they, this just barbs perception of it, is that they're discovering it earlier and getting it treated, because not as many people are dying of it, thankfully. But anyway, so what is the future? 

The future is as long as there's a need for people to experience the love and caring provided by Knitted Knockers, and as long as there's a giving and caring community out there, we want to be there in order to facilitate bringing those two groups together. 

And with Patti on board, she's literally taking it to the next level. I've done my journey here giving every bit of what I am to this, but I have a lot of limits. So, Patti, I'm just so excited when God just opened her heart to come on board, not only in the beginning when she was an answer to prayer for me, but she is now the next generation of Knitted Knockers. So I'm just very excited to hand the torch off. I am not going anywhere until God takes me from this earth, but I'm able to do what I love, which is talking and sharing with you. And Patti is just peddling really hard to keep this thing going.

Patti (57:06)

enough.

Patti (57:08)

And thank God for you, Barb, but you know, that's how I feel, Rick. And I think Barb had said it even when she first got her first Knitted Knockers that everyone needs to know about this. And I think that's how I feel is, as Barb said, breast cancer's increasing, awareness is increasing, but until every woman that needs a Knitted Knockers has one, our work is not done. Until every clinic that really could offer these to women, we're not done. 

And until every maker that has an opportunity, you know, what's nice about the Knit-A-Knocker as a project, as a knitter or crocheter, as Bart mentioned, a lot of us do charity knitting. We make things for other people. In fact, a lot of people make Knit-A-Knockers because they said, my family's so sick of, I can't make socks. They don't wear the sweaters. don't, you know, now at least you're making something that people actually need, but it's a fast project. 

So it's a nice little project in between your other projects. You know, you can still do other things. You can still make the prayer shawls, but this is a nice little portable. It's kind of like making socks can still do other things. You can still make commercials. But this is a nice little portable. It's kind of like making socks.

Patti (58:06)

But anyway, so thank God for things like social media. is really helpful spread the awareness. October, Breast Cancer Awareness Month, there will be huge news, article stories, newspaper, know, local knitters and Knitted Knockers makers will be interviewed by their local TV and newspapers and that helps to spread the word. You know, I feel like one person tells one person tells one person.

Patti (58:32)

And again, so many of us have been touched by breast cancer and it's just such a neat thing to be able to give back. And we talk about recipients where they've been made for a perfect stranger, but also it's so rewarding to be able to actually give them to somebody that you know. And that happens when people know that you make these. I've had literally my children have friends or co-workers, my husband's co-workers, people that, one of my friends that was a recipient, or they've been made for a birthright stranger. But also, it's so rewarding to be able to actually get into something that you know and that happens when people fundraiser early on for me. She was a very adamant, not the type that asked people to donate. She had a book club that she basically went the next month after she heard about Knitted Knockersa nd said, you are going to need to donate to Knitted Knockers. And her husband said, and she even made me donate too. But then a couple months later, I get this note that one of her book club members had been diagnosed with breast cancer and needed them. 

You one of our biggest advocates at one of our oncology centers in Indiana.

She was the biggest, she told everybody about Knitted Knockers. In fact, she recruited two volunteers who were sitting waiting for their husbands to have treatment and they were sitting and making whatever, a shawl, a chemo cap. And she said, do you know about Knitted Knockers? And she told them about our group and we gained a couple of volunteers. But then that same patient concierge reached out to us and said, guess what? Guess what I need? And I told her, you can pick out what color do you want? She had seen all the colors. It's like, she was the biggest, she killed everybody that night.

They were sitting and making whatever, a shawl, a chemo cap, and she said, you know about medical doctors? You tell me and we will make you the most beautiful Knitted Knockers that you ever have, you know, have ever seen. So that part too. until, until everybody knows about it, guess our work is not done.

Rick(1:00:10)

Well, I think it's like what you say it's a word of mouth. I'll tell you this you know, I go to my doctor every year for my annual physical, that's in October and I also go to another doctor who checks me a to find any potential signs of you know, any cancer that will come back because I shared that story with you that I had that.

But I gave you my word. I'm going to share the story with them because they know I have a podcast, but I'm going to want them to take time to listen to this and ask them, look, if you know, if someone wants to get more information, here's their website, but also, you know, share it with other doctors. 

Maybe they're not even aware that you guys are out there. know, so that much I will do for you. I mean, your story just, um, Oh God, oh my, I don't even know how to find the words for it. You really have, uh, you hit a nerve, a good nerve. Let's put it that way. 

Patti (1:01:21)

Thanks.

And actually speaking to the website, I wanted to give you the latest statistics from the website. So, we were talking about how many, so 2,402 registered medical providers. We have 7,130 Knitted Knockers groups. So as Bart said, it's not individuals, it's groups that are registered with us. And then to date, well, through September, we had given 1,039,147 Knitted Knockers.

Rick(1:01:26)

Sure.

Patti (1:01:51)

Since we've been counting since 2015. Then, the volunteer providing mid-adnopras is a 100 % volunteer organization. So, thanks for letting me share those statistics.

Barb (1:02:00)

And it's about, we're averaging between 12 and 14,000 every month going out. Every single month, all provided. And we have no corporate sponsors. So I know people are actually wondering, I'm hoping somebody out there is wondering, how can I help? How can I get involved? Can I share that, Rick?

Patti (1:02:08)

Yes, every single month.

Rick(1:02:23)

Well, that was one of my questions. Thank you. Please.

Barb (1:02:27)

Okay, all right, well, if you're a knitter or crocheter, our patterns are free. You can register with us or you can just get the patterns in the approved yarns and make them. And we have many different ways that you can distribute them. And if you don't know what to do with them, you can send them to us unstuffed and we'll get them into the hands of the people that need them. 

The second way is to share on social media, because every time you do that, it reaches a couple of our target audiences, targeted groups, rather. The women that can use them, that may not have heard about these Knitted Knockers. They all go, ⁓what's that that Suzy's posting about? gosh, I could use that. It also reaches the other group, which are those that can make them the knitters and the crocheters that might want to take on this project. 

And then the third thing that it does is you can donate. 

We give everything away free. We have no paid employees and We have no corporate sponsors. So, we survive based on the donations that people give we've been saying for years It costs about ten dollars to provide a pair of Knitted Knockers. 

It's more like 20 now We really need to reevaluate those costs because they all go up but So those are three ways and if you're not a knitter or crocheter and you want to do something practical you can connect with one of the groups. have a directory on our website by state. Connect with a group near you and you can just be a stuffer. We have a group that meets every week and they just stuff knockers. They don't know how to knit or crochet or they write the thank you notes that we send or they sort materials, print materials. We provide the brochures and things like that for the doctor's offices.

So those three ways to help. Make them, share about them, donate.

Knitted Knockers.org, you can find everything you need there.

Rick(1:04:36)

That's great.I promise you I will spread the word out of my website. I give you my word. No, because I know, gosh, at least five ladies who have gone through this, and I want to share this with them because I know they probably have never heard of you guys. So, I think this is going to be something  quite enjoyable for them to hear. But listen, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. This was an enjoyable, very captivating story. What I heard, I had a vision of what I was gonna hear, but not to this extent. It was more than I could have anticipated. 

Now, I usually like to end this conversation with what I call speed round questions, and I shared them with you. And I know, Barbie said you did wanna do about the live concert, so I'll give you a pass on that one. So.

Patti, let me ask you the first question. What was the best live concert you ever attended and why?

Patti (1:05:44)

I have a favorite. When my brother-in-law was turning 50 and I was turning 55, my sister reached out and said, the only thing that Fran wants is tickets to a U2 concert. So, she looked all over the world and literally came back and said, hey, you want to go to Munich, Germany in September? We went to Munich, Germany on a Tuesday before the 200th anniversary of Oktoberfest in Munich, Germany. 

And it was at the Munich, the Olympic stadium, so 80,000 people outdoor stadium. The actually,  what's the first group was actually one Republic who was fairly new at the time. But what struck me beside, I was so jet lagged, but it was such a beautiful place, a beautiful concert.

And I was so struck that we were surrounded by Germans, we're in Germany, yet they knew every single word to every single song and sang it out with every single song. So that was my most memorable. We were able to also go on to Austria and Venice, Florence, Tuscany, Rome, Italy. I it was a beautiful trip, that'll always be the number one concert I've ever been to. So, thank you for asking about that.

Rick(1:06:49)

You ought to read the book by Bono, Surrender. Have you read it? Yeah, you should. It's a very good book.

Patti (1:07:10)

No, no, I will. I will. Yeah. It just was a great concert.

Rick(1:07:15)

Okay, so this question for both of you. But Barb, you can go first. What do you wish you had more time to do?

Barb (1:07:21)

Was that on your list?

Rick(1:07:23)

Yeah?

Patti (1:07:23)

Yeah, it was.

Barb (1:07:27)

I wish I had more time to do nothing. I mean, seriously, the quiet time for me is very, very treasured. That's my short answer.

Rick(1:07:30)

Okay. I love it. Patti, how about you?

Patti (1:07:42)

You know, I'm a huge maker. love, I'm a fiber artist. So, I've evolved from knitting to now weaving and spinning. And I wish I had even more time. I have like too many projects and not enough time. 

You know, knitters, actually knitters, quilters, anybody that is in the fiber arts.

Can say they have a stash beyond their life expectancy. Literally, you have all this either yarn, fabric, whatever, and that's me, that I have all of these ideas that I wanna make and there's not enough time, but boy, I'm giving it the best shot that I can. So I wish I had more time for that, yeah. And when Barb approached me, that was the other thing I thought, you know, just wanna be lazy.

I really just wanna ease into retirement. That’s not going to happen. But you know, I'm happiest being busy. It's my whole life I've been that way. this is, it's just perfect. I love it. I'm passionate about it. And you know, it's been a good fit. 

Rick(1:08:37)

Okay, so the third question for both of you. So, Barbara was your first paying job.

Barb (1:08:44)

I was the lab girl in a small hospital and back then the sterilizers, they gave you a little bin full of stuff with ammonia poured into it and the test tubes all went in there and you had a little bottle washer and washed those things through that thing and then you put them in the sterilizer. I look back at that and I think, and I worked by myself at night in the hospital. 

I was just locked into that little lab room with that smelly ammonia and all. Well, who knows what diseases were in those things? But I survived. I lived. And I think I got my 35 cents an hour. That's how old I am.

Rick(1:09:30)

What about you, Patti, what was your first paying job?

Patti (1:09:32)

My first show was like many young people a fast food restaurant, which is defunct now, but it was a burger chef. So, I think they became hardies. But yes, frontline for a burger chef when I remember a fish sandwich was 55 cents, you know, and I probably made $3 an hour. But you know, that was my first job. And it made me know that I don't want to do fast food for the rest of my life. Even at 16.

Rick(1:09:59)

So, my next question I think is I think it's going to be interesting based upon what we've been talking about. So, Barb, if your husband wrote a book about you, what do you think the title would be?

Barb (1:10:11)

The little woman that could. I mean, kind of a play on the little train, you know, that little story. My mom had said to me once when I was a young girl, she said, you know, Barbara, you don't have a whole lot of talent, but you sure do try hard. I think that was meant as a compliment. That was when I was playing clarinet.

But that stuck with me, I think I may not be really good at anything, but I sure do keep trying. And my husband has backed me and lived that. So I think it would be that the woman who had no talent but tried or worked hard, I don't know. But the little engine that could, I don't know. Just kept on plugging.

Rick(1:10:59)

Hahaha! I love that. How about you, Patti?

Patti (1:11:05)

I think it would be, it would be called bloom where you're planted. And the reason for that is we moved around a lot when I was growing up, my dad's job, people think we were in the military, but he just had a job that promoted him, transferred him. We moved nine times in 12 years. I went to three high schools.

Freshman year, sophomore year, senior year, moved my senior year. But anyway, my mom's mantra was bloom where you're planted. And I'm grateful for that because instead of saying, we're not going to be here for very long, you know, might as well not make friends or might as well. threw herself into the church, into the school, into the community. And then off we went again. And I really have carried that with me through my whole life of bloom where you're planted, where you are, make the best of it. You know, I don't look back. I don't look. So, I think that's what it would be.

Rick(1:11:58)

That's a good attitude.

Yeah. Okay, so final question. Barb, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail?

Barb (1:12:06)

I would share the amazing thing more often that I've learned that...this incredible God that is big enough to create this whole creation and our bodies and our minds and our thoughts and everything and run everything still cares enough about a person's self-worth and their feeling that he would in this practical way he just showed how much he loved me in giving me this caring gift.

From my friend and it just astounds me that a big God would care enough about me to do that and I would just share that with anybody that God is big but he's also caring and loving. That's what I would do.

Rick(1:13:00)

That's beautiful. Patti, how about you?

Patti (1:13:04)

You know, I would love to find a cure for cancer, actually. I wish if time, money, knowledge, anything was not, I've been touched personally by it and I truly wish that we could somehow find a way. So that would be my number one thing I'd do if money, time or ability was no object.

Rick(1:13:27)

No, let's hope one day that will happen. So, well, Barb, Patti, this has been interesting to say the least.  I really want to thank you both. I want to thank you for your absolute sincerity in sharing your stories, because I know, in part, that going back to that period of time isn't easy and that reminiscing about it isn't easy either.

I think for the people that you are helping and when you, and I kept hearing this theme that a stranger took the time to want to help me. And I feel like, you know what, that stranger is now your friend and vice versa. I think that's how that works out. 

So again, I want to thank both of you for taking the time and the patience to get down and sit down and talk to me about this great journey that you guys are on to. And I think there's a lot more that's going to happen. And Patti, the rocket's yours. 

So, to my audience, I thank you for taking time to sit down and listen to Barb and Patti. And I hope you enjoyed the show, and we'll talk to you soon.