Interview #20 Pam Sandrock - Embracing Life's Challenges

Transcript, Aug. 28, 2025

Rick Barron (00:01)

Hi everyone, I'm Rick Barron, your host, and welcome to my podcast, That's Life, I Swear. 

My guest today is Pam Sandrock. She is the creator and host of her own podcast called No Knockouts. Now, Pam's podcast doesn't just tell stories. It delivers captivating inspiration straight from the heart. Now, Pam has a motto that I think is very simple, but yet profound:

Getting knocked down is inevitable. Getting knocked out is optional. 

Now, that mindset didn't come from theory. It came from experience. After a life-altering cancer diagnosis, Pam made a decision to not just fight back, but to live fully. 

That decision gave birth to No Knockouts, a space for raw conversations about struggle, recovery, mental toughness and the unshakable belief that fulfillment is still possible even when life gets messy. Now, if you've ever been knocked down but refused to stay there, then this episode is for you. 

So please join me as I have my conversation with Pam Samrock. 

Pam, welcome to the show.

Pam Sandrock (01:20)

Hi Rick, nice to talk to you today. What an introduction, I feel like an all-star. Very accurate though, very accurate.

Rick Barron (01:25)

No, I think it's so true because I like I said earlier in our conversations I went through your website I've listened to all of your podcasts by the way and I have a lot of questions just on those podcasts alone. I mean very insightful but I guess maybe ⁓ to help the those who are listening kind of give us a brief overview of who you are, where you live, how you got started, and so on.

Pam Sandrock (02:01)

I wouldn't want to bore anybody, the guts of it all is I am a stay-at-home mom for about 20 years. I live in Houston, Texas, but I was born and raised in a small town and also in Texas. 

I'm sort of a small-town girl living in a big city. I feel a little out of place there. I've lived here for a long time, but my heart and soul are in the country in the woods. I raised my kids here in Houston and when they were nine and 10, I was diagnosed with breast cancer.

And that was probably the biggest shake up of my life up until this point. I hope that continues to be the biggest shake up of my life. I hope that's it. I hope I've crossed that check or I've checked that box and crossed it off the list. 

But that that altered my life as it would just about anybody. But I continue to raise my kids, stay home with them. And as of about 2020, 2021, I started doing some coach training and became a coach just this May, just a few months ago, I launched my podcast, the No Knockouts podcast. I kind of want to bring what's inside of me, what I've learned, what I know, what I want to continue to bring about. I want to share that. I don't want to waste anything I've learned either through experience or learning. And I do feel like the podcast platform is a great place to express myself.

I want to share that. I don't want to waste anything I've learned, either through experience or learning. And I do feel like the podcast platform is for anyone who wants to tune in. I don't want to force myself on anybody, but someone who has an open ear, I'm happy to talk. That's what I did. I've launched the No Knockouts podcast just a few months ago and I'm just really loving it. Just love it, I really do.

Rick Barron (03:37)

That's great. Well, that's kind of a good segue. ⁓ I have listened to all of your podcasts and every topic is different. Every topic has a different flow. And I think you've kind of alluded to it, but how do you come up with the topics that you want to talk about? mean, do they all stem from your experience or is it what you've heard from other people, what they went through? What's the combination?

Pam Sandrock (04:05)

Well, that's a good question. I don't think I can speak much on something unless I've experienced it in some way. I don't think I would be very effective at talking about something unless it comes from my depths, unless it comes from my heart. So much of what I speak about, or at least the base of it, is from my own knowledge or experience. Now, I do throw in stories or knowledge or wisdom from other people, but I've also learned from them as well. So, if I speak on something, I have to have some feeling or connection or attachment towards it for the base of the topic. 

Now, through the years, through the past few years, I have created a large list of topics. And so, I'm not shy on things to talk about going forward. But up until this point, I've kind of started with things that are meaningful or deep to me right now, or I want to reflect back on that I think someone might be wanting to hear to reflect back on that I think someone might be wanting to hear.

Rick Barron (04:58)

Yeah, that's great.  Again, and to that end, as I listen to all of your podcasts, I would think down the road, those that make good topics to have someone be a guest to talk to in dealing with those particular topics that you've covered thus far, because I would imagine hearing from another person, you would bounce off each other with what those experiences were like and I think that would be a great vehicle to expand upon what you're wanting to share with everyone. 

Have you thought about that and you think you might start that soon?

Pam Sandrock (05:45)

Yeah, absolutely. I do intend to bring in some interviews here in the next few episodes. I'm working towards that right now. I've had some pre-conversations with people on things that we could talk about with other podcast hosts that we can do some swaps on. And one of the things that kind of is a theme is a lot of people want to talk about their own comeback story. They want to talk about their own setback to comeback story, whatever that is. Even if I don't ask them to do it, it kind of comes about 

in conversation. And I think it's therapeutic. I think people want to or need to talk about the things that hurt their soul or the things that bother them. I think it's therapeutic for people to let that out thinking someone might benefit from this too.

Rick Barron (06:31)

Very, because I've had similar situations where I've spoken to people and then as you called out, it just kind of popped into the conversation about their journeys in life. And one person, just had to ask the question. said, you've gone from here to here. What have you learned about yourself? And his comeback was, you know what? No one ever has asked me that question. And he was a little bit stunned and he didn't quite know what to say.

And all of a sudden it just came out. But the end result was that he learned to look fear straight in the face and not let it defeat him. He realized that the more he felt that he couldn't attempt to do something out of fear of failure, he realized, I can't do this anymore. And what he does today, he owns his own sailing business in the Caribbean. So, he takes people out on tours.

And he's always had a love for sailing. But when he went out there, he realized it's just me in the boat. And when you're an owner of a boat, you have to do everything. So, he learned as he went. But as he was going through that exercise, he became so self-assured of himself. And he felt like, you know, this fear factor that I've always had on my shoulder. It's gone. It's gone. So, I think to some end, some people kind of fall into it to overcome that fear? mean, have you ever met someone like that in your journeys? Not maybe not through your podcast, but maybe in life.

Pam Sandrock (08:11)

Yeah, absolutely. The theme I pick up on is we all have setbacks and we all have comebacks. That's part of life. And a lot of times we keep them hidden. We just kind of tuck them away because we think they're gone. But when we get the chance to talk about them, I think we're proud of them. I think people are proud of what they overcome. Even if it just was miserable and horrible in the worst situation ever, if you overcome something, there is a sense of pride in that.

Not only is it therapeutic to let it out, but it is empowering to take that situation and realize themselves that they've turned it into their own power, that they have overcome something, that they are no longer fearful of something that they once were or whatever the emotion or obstacle was. They take that situation, regurgitate it, and then benefit themselves and then let it out to others. So, I do think take that situation, regurgitate it, and then benefit themselves.

So, I do think that sharing internal strength that sharing internal struggle is healthy.

Rick Barron (09:16)

Yeah, it is because again, going back to the person who I called out, he almost felt like a cleansing within himself. Yeah. And it's like, why did I do this years ago? you know, I guess sometimes it takes a certain moment in life that just the porch light goes on and you realize it's not because, you know, I have to do it. I want to do it.

Pam Sandrock (09:25)

Absolutely.

Yeah, I think years ago when probably three, four, five years after my diagnosis, I saw a quote or read a quote and I'm not going to remember it exactly, but it was something along the lines of when you can talk about what hurt you without crying, you're healed. You know, when you can talk about it freely without falling back into that devastating emotional state, then you have already overcome.

Rick Barron (10:01)

Right.

Pam Sandrock (10:10)

And I agree with that sentiment. I agree with that quote. I agree with if you can't talk about something without falling back into the devastation or the pain or the hurt or whatever it is, then you're not healed. And I'm no psychologist or counselor in any way. I'm just speaking from my own experience. But when you can move past that and discuss it with someone, whether it be somebody you know or a complete stranger, you've overcome absolutely, I mean, and very quickly.

Rick Barron (10:12)

I don't know if I told you early on when we first met one another, I came down with cancer. And the reason I found out about it was because my wife, when we got married, the first thing she said, I want you to give me a Christmas wish.

And I said, what do you want? said, just give me one Christmas wish. said, OK. I want you to go to the doctor every year to do an annual checkup. Long story short, it was about seven, eight years later. My doctor noticed a spot on my wrist. said, how long has that been there? I said, I don't know, maybe a year or two. He said, let's get that checked out. Went to a specialist across the street, took a biopsy and said, I'll call you back tonight to see what I find.

That's when he came back and he said, have melanoma. And I just froze. And I had to come back to talk to two specialists. ⁓ One gave me some more information about what the diagnosis was. And then she said, I want you now to talk to the doctor who's going to do the surgery. And I said, wait a minute, what do mean surgery? And he says, he'll explain. So, he came back and he looked at my wrist and he explained the nature of what was going to be involved.

And he explained the options. And the first option was, depending upon how deep he goes, you you could lose a feeling, say in part of your hand, you could lose feeling in your tire hand. You could lose your feeling in your entire arm. And then he dropped the bomb. He said, you could lose your arm. God as my witness, I fell to the floor and I cried. And he helped me up. I said, you know. I'm sorry, just.

Pam Sandrock (12:18)

Yeah.

Rick Barron (12:23)

I'm sorry, it just knocked me over, you know? But anyway, I got through it, but then I had to go back for a second surgery. long story short, I recovered through it. And you know, my wife was with me all the way, excuse me. And you know, she helped me get through it, but I realized I'm getting through this on my own as well. Because I know, absolutely.

Pam Sandrock (12:25)

Yeah. Nobody can help you in those depths. They can care for you and love you to the end of the earth, but they can't pull you out of that hole. Do you agree?

Rick Barron (12:54)

Yeah, I was there. No, I mean, I had moments when I thought this isn't happening to me. And then I realized what would have happened had I not made that simple wish to my wife. What if I had never met my wife? So, you know, life will throw things at you that you don't see coming at you for various reasons. But I think, you know, what you call out in your episodes, I think is so revealing to people to understand there are variations in your life that you're going to hit and you're going to be asking yourself why me? But there's a way to get out of it. You just have to deal with that. Now, looking at your website, I was very taken by the some of the free resources that you offer. And the one I'd like I did print out both of them.

There's three of them; it took out Declutter My Mind. And then the other one, about a Stay-at-home Mom. And you actually filled this out, which I found very helpful. And you said, I surrounded myself with other awesome moms. And as I was reading through this, I mean, I was highlighting a lot of things, but I'm going to share one that really caught my eye. And you said, make mom friends who are not just like you. What does that mean? I mean, that just knocked me over. I don't know why.

Pam Sandrock (14:26)

I went, before I stayed home, I worked in the corporate world. So, I had lots of associations every day on the phone, in person. I talked to a lot of people. And then when you stay home, your world just gets really small. It's you and this little baby or babies, whenever it happens. And yeah, I've got my spouse and he goes to work and I see him at night or in the mornings, but your days are long and your world shrinks and you lose that adult interaction.

And it's real tempting to make friends with people who think just like you and do it just like you, because that makes life easy. But I purposefully and intentionally tried to meet people who weren't like me to stretch me because I knew I was shrinking. I knew I was going into my home with my babies. And although I was learning a whole new role and learning how to be a mom and all those things, I had lost the outside world. I had lost my human interaction, my adult interaction, I guess.

And I was being challenged before staying home with work challenges and people and all the interactions. And I lost all that. And so, I felt like in order to keep myself growing, in order to keep myself challenged; in order to still grow my human person, I needed to be around people that were dynamic and not just like me. And so, I intentionally interacted with people in mommy groups or mommy clubs or church or wherever I was to with people who weren't just like me, just so I could keep stretching and growing, so I didn't just settle into who I naturally was. I wanted to continue to evolve as a human, not just be a mom. I wanted to be more than that.

Rick Barron (16:06)

Right. That's interesting. You know, to your point too, that kind of brings up a story I have. 

We, uh, for a while we used to have Fourth of July parties on our street so people would come around and bring their food and we have a great time. And I saw this one individual, you know, kind of looked rather gruff. His exterior didn't really invite. He'd come over and talk to me. And he was sitting there, you know, enjoying his hot dog and having a beer. I just went up to him, introduced myself and we got to talking. 

And he said, you know, you're the first person in this neighborhood who's ever taken the time to want to talk to me. And I said, well, how long have you been living here? And he said about three months. And I said, well, where do you live? I said, live around the block on a street called Annapolis. And he gave me his address. And I said, wait a minute. Were your parents so and so? I said, yeah, I'm their son. When they passed away, they passed on the house to him. So, I didn't realize he was my neighbor in my backyard all those years. And we just got to talking. And as I realized,

Pam Sandrock (17:09)

All those years.

Rick Barron (17:15)

You know, we, as a society sometimes will look at people and we instantly judge them by their exterior rather than, wait a minute, we don't even know who this person is. So, when we sat down and we started talking, we had the best conversation and, I mean, obviously we're friends today, but I mean, what a coincidence. Cause I had no idea when that house went up for sale, who moved in. And it just turned out that on the 4th of July, I met them.

Pam Sandrock (17:40)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I just think you never know who's gonna come into your life. And if you have a closed mind and a closed heart, you're closing yourself off from your own growth in some instances. And so I think if we're intentional about expanding ourselves, then we'll continue to do that, as opposed to just you falling into your own comfort zone and stop growing.

Rick Barron (17:45)

Never know who's gonna think if we're intentional, we'll intentionally continue to do that. I like that your comfort zone. a lot of people I think it's human nature people will do that but yeah in the episodes that you've done thus far I think what did I think you've done 19 already

Pam Sandrock (18:17)

I just published 18 yesterday. Yeah, 18 are out there.

Rick Barron (18:27)

Got it. Which of those episodes really struck a chord with you and why?

Pam Sandrock (18:36)

Well, they all do, otherwise I wouldn't be doing them. You know, they all mean something to me. My most popular episode is the age one. You know, it is embracing your age. And I had no idea it was going to be such a hit. It continues to grow every day. And my message is just simply to embrace your age no matter what age and stage you are, because every year you get is a privilege. 

And you may embrace your age no matter what age and stage you are because every year you get is a may be able to relate to this. When I was diagnosed and you face your own mortality, when you hear the word cancer, you automatically think, I'm dying, I'm gonna die. And although that wasn't true for me, I've lived and will continue to. You're still faced with thinking that way, at least for a little while. And it really changed the way I think about aging. A lot of people are intimidated about going gray or getting wrinkles or sagging skin or all of that. I say bring it on because that means I've lived a long time. To me, that's a win. 

Bring on the later stages of life because that means I live that long. And no, I don't want to purposefully age or anything like that, but I do welcome every year because it is a privilege to get that. Some people don't get to live that long.

Rick Barron (19:38)

Yeah.

Pam Sandrock (19:59)

I guess putting that message out there has struck a chord with people. So that probably wasn't the most impactful on me, but it's the most impactful so far on the public.

Rick Barron (20:06)

No, I think it's so true though because I did listen to that podcast and I think what struck me was, and I don't know if you called it out. I think we live in a world that tends to be very artificial in so many respects that people, they go out of their way to try to keep their age a secret that they'll go to many ends to make their face, you know, firm and tight, you know, color their hair. 

And, uh, I know I used to go to my barbershop and, uh, the barber had asked me, would you like to have your hair colored? I said, well, why does its a, you know, she said, thought you'd bring it up. I said, no, I'm okay with it. I like what I have, you know, but I, I think sometimes people just have a tendency to not understand that, you know, you can put on the fake facade, but sooner or later it is what it is, accept it and, know, and embrace it.

Pam Sandrock (21:04)

Right, And I think that's my message is instead of fighting what's already natural, celebrate what you get, celebrate each year because you do get it. Because some people don't get to live that long. And it is truly a privilege. And when you can embrace aging as opposed to fear it or worry. it really changes your whole perspective on life. Allows you, it feels like a big funnel is in front of you as opposed to this like falling down into a tunnel. You know, it opens up life as opposed to it shrinking and getting smaller, thinking you only have a few good years left or there's not that much time left. 

I think if you fully live each year of your life, I'm currently 48. If I am fully 48 and not fall back and think about, I wish I would have done this when I was 40. I wish I would have done this. That's spending time in the past. And if I say, I hope I get to do this when I'm 55, that's spending time in the future. I do think you should plan, but you need to live in the present and fully develop that year that you're in. So when the next one comes, you're like, all right, that was a good one.

Rick Barron (22:00)

Hmm, you should plan but you need to live.

Pam Sandrock (22:19)

What are we gonna do now?

Rick Barron (22:20)

Yeah, I kind of take that approach and because you know, I'm 75 now in about two weeks, I'm gonna be 76 and it doesn't really hit me anymore. Like I used to think about it. I know when my wife gave me a surprise birthday party for my 75th birthday last year, she went all out to decorate the house and she had all these banners.

And she said, I want you to see this one banner over the fireplace. So, I walked in with her and it said, happy 75th birthday. I looked at that and all of sudden it just hit me. And like, in the blink of an eye. Your life goes much faster than you realize. And I thought, you know, I've said this to myself before, I'm going to keep living life as intensely as I can when I can.

And I think getting into podcasting has really been a lift for me. And I've met so many people in my interviewing episodes, including you. And I mean that sincerely. That you learn from others so much that you begin to realize you don't know as much as you think you know. So, I find that extremely helpful.

Pam Sandrock (23:25)

Thank you. I want to bite on a word you said, intensity. You said intensely. But intensity is its own reward. You know, working at something with intensity, you feel something after that. You feel a little bit more powerful. You feel strength. And I think a lot of people get to a certain stage of life, and I'm not there, but I've seen it happen, where they just coast. They just kind of pull the plug and now it's time to coast. And while I want to do that,

Rick Barron (23:42)

Mm-hmm.

Pam Sandrock (24:05)

I also want to have intensity, so, I kind of think I want to cycle. I want to cycle intensity and cycle a breath. know, take a breath, breathe, relax, come back stronger sort of feeling. But I think intensity is key as we move forward. And it's a chosen intensity, not the kind where you have to be intense. Like, you know, there's a difference there. When it's forced upon you, it doesn't feel good. But when you can choose your intensity, like you've done with your podcast, I think that's a true win.

Rick Barron (24:13)

It is. I dove into it without realizing what I was getting into. And my wife was the one who encouraged me to do it. And that came about because she says, ⁓ know how much you love to research, how much you love to read. And she'll back me up. You will never see me without a book in my hand. I love to read. But I get a lot of ⁓ not support, but inspiration from my wife.

We've been buried now, you know, 31 years and in every year, I always learned something from her. And she is someone who doesn't sit still. She is always doing something and she's not afraid to tackle anything. For instance, many years ago we had these old cabinets in our garage and I'm here reading a book and almost I hear this pounding.

What is going on out there? So, I went out there and I said, what are you doing? well, you said you wanted to take these down. I said, I'm going to, I'm doing it for you. And without thinking, I took the hammer out of her hand. 

I will never forget the look on her face. It was a look of disappointment, a look of, you don't think I can do this. Look, let me tell you, I was in a doghouse for a while. I mean, she didn't say anything. She was a little bit upset with me, but I lived with that guilt for about a week or two. My wife means she's my breath. I got to tell you, you know, but I gave her back the hammer. I apologize. And she did a darn good job, you know, but she's someone who can tackle anything and she has the mindset if she can't do it she'll analyze it she'll figure it out and she does it and from what I've seen with her am I like with her I've learned so much about what I can do all I have to do is just test the boundaries and just go for it so to that end you know.

Pam Sandrock (26:52)

I think you allowed her to grow. So, whether she could do it or she couldn't, she took on the challenge to do it. And I think when we feel like we've grown and overcome something, we feel more capable, because we realize our capabilities. And that feels good. When you feel squashed or someone says you can't or you won't or whatever, that doesn't feel good. It feels shrinking. It feels minimizing. And that doesn't feel good.

Rick Barron (27:15)

Mm-hmm.

Pam Sandrock (27:21)

And so, you just allowed her to grow, empowering her, giving her a sense of satisfaction.

Rick Barron (27:27)

Well, you know, I felt that I made a huge wrong when that happened. And, you know, I kept apologizing for her and my wife is someone who is like her father. You get mad, it's over, we move on. And she just went as I kept apologizing; she put her hand in front of my face. He said, That's enough. Yeah. I said, okay. So anyway, lesson learned. 

Pam Sandrock (27:48)

That's enough. Yeah. I wanna go back to something you said when you walked in, when you said your 75th party, and you walk in and you saw the big 75.

Rick Barron (27:58)

Sure.

Pam Sandrock (28:04)

My grandmother gave me probably the best advice of my life. And it's so simple. It's it. And you sparked it in me. My grandmother is still alive. And I'm fortunate, fortunate enough to have grown up with all four of my grandparents and played a big part in my life. So, I feel very blessed with that. But when I was pregnant with my first son, we were having a little baby shower and my granny was standing over the cake with me and we were cutting the little cake.

And she said, Pammy, she called me Pammy. She said, Pammy, I wanna tell you something. And I said, okay, I might tear up here. She said, I want you to appreciate every moment because they're gonna be hard ones, but they go by so fast. So just take advantage of them all and appreciate them all, okay? And I'll never, ever forget it. It wasn't this profound moment, but it was to me and my heart, it sunk in.

Rick Barron (28:49)

They go by I love that.

Pam Sandrock (29:04)

And when my oldest was a, I don't know, maybe six months old or somewhere in there, little baby still, I remember calling her just crying. And I said, granny, I'm exhausted. He won't stop crying. He's always hungry. I'm just so tired. I can't get enough sleep. And she said the same thing, Pammy, this is going to pass. Just hold on because one day these days are going to be gone. Just like that, they're going to be gone. So just appreciate the cries too.

Rick Barron (29:17)

Yeah

Pam Sandrock (29:33)

I will never ever forget that. That those two times at the baby shower and then when I called her and she said, just appreciate every moment, that's really changed my life. I intentionally try to appreciate and absorb moments, even when they're hard, I don't like it, but I do. And I think when you said, just like that, it's over, just like that, those 75 years have passed. I see that within myself in my own life.

She said just appreciate every moment. That's really changed my life. I intentionally try to appreciate and absorb moments even when they're hard. I don't like it, but I do I and I think when you said Just like that it's over just like that 75 years of past I see that within myself in my own life

Even though I've appreciated even though I've appreciated them and lived them intently and with intention, they still go so fast. It's like it'll never be enough. You know, even though I've lived them fully with that advice, it's like it's just not enough.

Rick Barron (30:11)

They do. That's true. mean, even in your podcast, you talk about some of the episodes and they're, you know, inspirational. And I got that from my father, because he gave me a lot of inspiration about how to tackle life. He came from a big family. It was during the Depression and they all had to work to bring money into the family.

And he wasn't, he didn't be able, he wasn't even able to finish junior high school, let alone high school. Long story short, you know, he moved into the Silicon Valley. He got on with a construction company and that's how he started his, his life in construction. And he had this shovel that I remember as a kid and he had that with him throughout his entire time working for that construction company.

Then he retired and he just got, you know, bored. He couldn't sit at home. It's like, have to do something. So, he met this Japanese gardener and he employed him and gave taught him the tricks of the trade. And that's when he started his own business. And he had that's still had that shovel. And long story short, he and my mother came over to have dinner with my wife and I, and my dad and I were sitting on the porch talking.

And I don't know what prompted him to say this. He says, you know, when I pass away, I really don't have much to leave you. And I said, I wasn't expecting anything, dad. And as soon as I said that, he said, you know what? There is one thing I want from you. He said, what is it? I want your shovel. He said, what do you want my shovel? I said, I'll explain it to you when you bring it to me. 

Next day he brought it. It was still a little dirty. Took it into the garage and I cleaned it in the wash basin and he said, why did you want my shovel? I said, because of what it represents to me. You did so much for us to work so hard to get through college and everything else. But in addition, the values you ingrained in us. I say us because I'm a twin. And, I said, I'll never forget that. And I said, I think this shovel is so representative of what was your tool to get us there. And he just came up and he hugged me. So anyway, I have the shovel hanging in what we call our man cave in the garage. it, yeah.

Pam Sandrock (32:48)

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, it's so symbolic, but it's got years’ worth of blood, and tears in that shovel.

Rick Barron (32:59)

Yeah, you know, I, because I tell other people the same story and they're just amazed when they see the shovel and you can see that the blade is carved kind of outline. Yes, absolutely. So, but, ⁓ thank you. Yeah. But I think again, you know, your stories, I think call that out to people to have them understand that there is beauty in life. You're, all going to get knocked down whether you like it or not. It's whether you decide to get on your knees, brace yourself with your hands to get up again and stick to it.

Pam Sandrock (33:08)

Right, it's very used. That's a beautiful story.

And we get knocked down, getting knocked down as part of life. It doesn't matter if your WiFi goes out or your sink has a leak or you get diagnosed or you go through a divorce. It's just all part of life. And I think if you can embrace taking the good with the bad, and really that's two sided, you know, I kind of think of it as a number line. Sometimes you're on this side, the really good side, and sometimes you're on this side, the not so good side, and you spend a lot of time in the middle. Some of that.

Never Land or the No Man's Land where you're like, I'm not sure if this is good or bad, you know, but we, we fluctuate on that number line. We go back and forth. We don't just stay stagnant. It's constantly moving. It's dynamic. And I think if we can embrace just going and saying, I'm just somewhere on this number line today or this moment. And I mean, I'm going to try to go up. I'm going to try to go to the better side right now. But I do think that if you can say when the bad times do come, you can say, ⁓ crap, it's just my turn now. You know, we all get a turn at the negatives, at the hard stuff. And you can be like, just gosh darn it, it's my turn. I didn't want this, I didn't expect it, didn't plan for it, but I guess it's my turn and I'm just gonna have to deal with it.

Rick Barron (34:34)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. My wife will sometimes remind me of some of the bad moments we had. she'll tell me, remember when this happened and this happened and you used to get upset about it? How are we going to get through this? And she says, look, here we are 31 years later. We made it. Yeah.

Pam Sandrock (35:04)

Yeah, you're gonna live through it. Yeah, you're gonna live through it. I think one of the mindset changes that I've had in the more recent years that I did not have when I was diagnosed, I have it now. it's when something happens, if I can quietly ask myself, what is this trying to teach me? That really makes a difference. And things don't hurt us. 

Things don't hurt us unless there's lessons to be learned in it. If we were perfect and things were easy, it wouldn't bother us so much. And so that's something that I have adopted or adapted to is asking myself, what can I learn from this? Or what in this experience is trying to teach me something? And honestly, that got me through some of my hardest days during my cancer time is I remember sitting in my husband's car. He was driving me to a doctor's appointment and it was raining or misting out and the skies were gray.

Rick Barron (35:36)

Mm-hmm.

Pam Sandrock (36:02)

And remember saying to him, just crying my eyes out really, honestly, this was in the early times. And I said, everything is just so gray. I just see the world differently now. There's no color. Everything is gray. And he comforted me and said, you know, you're gonna see light again. You're gonna see things are gonna pass. It's gonna get better. But I couldn't see it at that time. I couldn't see the color of life. Everything was just muted and grayed out.

And through time, as time went on, I had to intentionally look for the color of life. had to intentionally find the good in the days because my mindset was so bad. I was so devastated. I was so low. I was such a victim in my own mind at that time. Then I didn't really have the tools and didn't know how to pull myself out of it. But intentionally finding the good really builds momentum.

Rick Barron (37:06)

Absolutely. Now you said you took coaching courses, I guess, to do what you're doing today. Now, was that something you had planned to do or is that something after you got over the hurdle of cancer?

Pam Sandrock (37:12)

Yeah. No, I kind of think of that as a God given thing because no, I had not planned that at all. It just kind of came to me. And when I realized that sort of thing existed, I just moved towards it more and more. And I think the way I came to it is I was already; I call myself healed. had already overcome much of my own devastation in my own mind.

But I was still longing for more. would journal, I would make notes, and wanted to do something with this wisdom or knowledge or experience that I had. felt like I was wasting it by not sharing it or helping others. And I have a degree, a four-year degree from Texas A &M in biomedical science. But I always kind of, I went into school, study in psychology, and I changed my major to biomedical science. And I always kind of fell back on psychology. I'm like, ah, I still like that.

I still like the psychological part of life. And so, I started doing some digging. was like, psychology degrees and looking at that, just figuring out what could I do with that passion inside of me that I never really developed. And somehow, I just, one thing led to another and I discovered coaching and just pursued that route and realized, okay, this is the thing here. It's not taking you back to therapy.

It's moving you forward from wherever you are. And I like that. I didn't want to have to go back and talk about all the devastating things of our childhood. I wanted to take, wanted to, I want to accept where I'm at and just move forward. And that's what coaching does. And I wanted to pursue that. So, I feel like God kind of planted that in me and it wasn't a direct, this long-term plan. It's just something that developed through the years.

Rick Barron (38:43)

Right. Yeah, I kind of see that too in these resources that you had on your website. And the one in particular was ⁓ declutter my mind and you have examples of how to fill in the blanks, so to speak. And just going through this, I just realized this wasn't just slapped together. This is someone who knows what they're talking about. Does that stem from your education at Texas A&M. 

Pam Sandrock (39:37)

No, I wouldn't say directly. mean, indirectly, yes. I think that came more from my own experience because my mind was so cluttered, I had to figure out what to do with it. And so, some of that is my own practice and experience. And some of it I did learn through coaching, coaching trainings. But some of the science or background behind it I am familiar with, but I wouldn't attribute it to my undergrad. I think it stems for more from my own personal experience and having to overcome what was going on in my mind. I knew my mind was noisy. It was noisy and it was loud and it was cluttered and I needed to clean it up. And so, I feel like I don't always know how to do it, but I can get myself there faster now than I ever could. And I feel like I can help other people do the same.

Rick Barron (40:09)

I have to guess your husband and your sons are extremely proud of what you've started thus far. 

Pam Sandrock (40:33)

I hope so. I don't run around trying to coach them because I don't think they'd like that very much if I just walked around telling them what to do and how to do it and how to think and what to say. I kind of let them be, but I do kind of from the back side help things along sometimes.

Rick Barron (40:43)

Yeah. Well, I think you should also understand that, you know, just the podcasting side of it, it involves a lot of work and you have to really, at least for me, I have a real passion for it and I just, I love writing, I love reading, so I don't see it as a chore and I always find that by going through my research, I'll accidentally find something else like, ⁓ that would make a great story. So, I start writing on that.

Pam Sandrock (41:02)

Mm-hmm.

Rick Barron (41:18)

But I just think that to each their own, what they will want to do for their own podcast. again, I think it's something that I find it enjoyable. I think if you have a passion for it, you don't look at it as work.

Pam Sandrock (41:35)

No, it's not work. I think it's a creative outlet. You know, when I was growing up, I would have never thought of myself as creative in any way. In fact, I tell people I can barely cut a straight line and I can't color in the lines that, you know, painting or drawing or anything like that. That is not something anybody's going to ever ask me to do or sing or play a musical instrument. So, I would have never thought of myself as an artist or a creative type. But what I have realized is I actually it's just in the podcast form and I can't color in the line, but you painting, drawing and it really is an art.

For some people, it maybe they can just dump whatever comes out of their mind, but there's storytelling to it and there's structure to it. And it is creative. And when a person uses their creativity, it reduces their anxiety. When you can be creative, you're using parts of yourself that when you're expressive, you allow yourself to come out as opposed to sitting inside of yourself thinking and hiding and creativity reduces anxiety. And so I find it very helpful and healthy just to do that. Now, every week I don't want to go sit down and write an episode or lay it all out because sometimes it does feel heavy. And I'm assuming you feel that way too, right? Like, ⁓ here it comes again. I got to do it again. But once you get started, I just find it to be so healthy to process.

Pam Sandrock (42:55)

In my case, I'm talking about a lot of times something that is close to me, like we mentioned earlier on. So, it's therapeutic for me to lay it out in a way that is healing or I have experienced that someone else may be able to relate to. And so, when with the intent of helping others, it feels good. It feels good to serve others in that way. And so, I think the expressiveness of my own creativity is a challenge but I also find it very rewarding. And I imagine you do too, Rick.

Rick Barron (43:29)

Absolutely. I do. You in fact, I get feedback from ⁓ friends of mine where I share stories, for example, on things that you wouldn't have known that happened in history. 

Real quick, there was a story I wrote about this lady who lived in Scotland and she went to go apply for a job at the post office and she got the job and they said part of the job is to collect the information from our weather report and to send it to this location via radio. 

And she said, okay, I'll do that. And for almost a year and a half, she did that. Unbeknownst to her, the weather report that she was sending on a daily basis was going to a particular office in the UK, which happened to be part of the establishment that was putting together the planning of D-Day. 

So, they were getting those weather reports to determine what would be the best time of year to stage this invasion. And they were planning; military were planning to do the invasion on June 5th. And then they got their weather report that said the conditions would not be ideal.

Pam Sandrock (44:35)

Mmm.

Rick Barron (44:58)

it would probably do more harm than good to go now. So, they said, let's wait till tomorrow. So, they got the weather report on June 6th and that's when they made the invasion. This lady didn't find out about what she was doing until like 20 years later. And yeah, because I, I, saw this article and I thought, what is this all about? But it's some of those things that you just are not aware that someone in history, made a difference or at least contributed to something grand happening. it's stories like that that I search for that I find are meaningful to, or at least I hope are meaningful to people to get some substance out of what life is all about. And I think the interviews that I've been doing thus far go to that direction.

Pam Sandrock (45:15)

That's an amazing story. think it's about contribution. I think the way I look at it is at the end of my life, before I ever started this podcast, and I was questioning myself, should I, shouldn't I? I can talk myself out of it all the ways. I'm too this, I'm not enough this, this is too big, it's too scary, too intimidating. But at end of my life, am I gonna be proud that I did it or am I gonna regret it if I don't do it? And so, I think it's looking backwards. Is this a contribution I want to make and will I regret it if I don't? And that's a resounding yes, I'm gonna do this, at least for some time period. I feel like I'm contributing and at the end of my days, I would regret it if I didn't. And that's how many of my decisions are made. You know, I kind of like have pre-written my obituary, if you will. That's kind of my filter. Looking back, whether I die at this age or that age, when I look back and I sit at Heaven's gates and I see God and I say, Hey God, how'd I do? You know, and he's reviewing my little resume here. Am I gonna be proud of my resume? Or did I hold myself back? Was I like, I'm too scared, I'm too this, I'm not good enough? No, I'm just gonna do it. Why not? Why not?

Rick Barron (47:10)

I know I totally agree because you know, I hate regrets. really do. ⁓ Real quickly, a person I'm working with right now reached out to me because he wanted to be on my show to do an interview. Anyway, we discussed what he wanted to do or talk about. He said, well, I'm about to take a journey that started July 14th of this year.

And he said, yeah, I'm taking a journey. And I said, well, where are you going? I said, well, I'm to go for a hike. I said, okay, interesting. Where are you going for a hike? I planned to walk the entire perimeter of the United Kingdom. That's 7,000 miles, Pam. So, he started July 14th and like everything else, he had so much enthusiasm. He still does. Started off, but as he was going,

Pam Sandrock (47:55)

Wow.

Rick Barron (48:06)

You know, he began to realize there were things he didn't anticipate, things that were causing him to have to take a detour on his walk, not having enough food, losing too much weight. He thought he had the proper boots. But long story short, he's still at it. And he just ⁓ finished 512 miles. But right now, he's in the hospital to get his foot checked out because he got infected.

I've been keeping in touch with him doing text messages. And I said, look, here's a map I bought of the UK from National Geographic. said, I'm out and putting a dot wherever you go as you call out those towns. And I said, at the end of your journey, and I said, when you do finish, I'm going to give you this map. So that way you have it forever. And I said, I'm going to mark where you hit 500, 1000, 1500, 2000. But he has had those moments.

Like you express where I can't do this, but he jumps back the next day. He realizes I want to do this and it makes him so happy. You can see it in his video clips. He has every day to give a status of where he is. You know, he talks about the ups and downs, but Ian, ⁓ that's his name is determined. And I said, keep that faith, you know, I'm here with you. Your friends are with you. You're going to do this.

Pam Sandrock (49:35)

Mm-hmm. That's really inspiring. And you talked about the I can't. He probably wakes up and says, I can't do this anymore. Or I'm too tired or my foot hurts too bad.

Rick Barron (49:35)

He's had moments I could tell in his audio, ⁓ or he sounds very frustrated, but Ian will say that. And then the next day it's like, okay, onward, we're going to go this way and he'll do it. And he's adapting. He's reinventing himself. Like what, what do I need to do? He's got the proper boots; a word of mouth had gotten around. So, ⁓ a food company in UK is going to provide him ⁓ food that is more geared to those who are walking and hiking. And ⁓ he's got the right boots, but he also has the right mindset now that, you know, there's going to be ups and downs. And who was I kidding? But he's got the mindset that he's going to do this.

Pam Sandrock (50:38)

Yeah, I think it's fantastic. He has an end goal in mind. I think if you have your end goal in mind, your why, you're constantly driven by that. And that why or that end goal has to be bigger than whatever discouragement is going on in your mind or discouragement from the outside. You know, if you can overcome the obstacles mentally, just like in sports, they say that your mind needs to be stronger than your body. It's the same thing

Rick Barron (51:03)

I know.

Pam Sandrock (51:04)

In life. You know, you have to overcome and his end goal is to complete this. That's really inspiring.

Rick Barron (51:10)

Yeah, he anticipates is going to take him at least. Oh gosh, I think 16-17 months to complete. And thus far, just doing some quick math where he is now. If he sticks with it. It's going to be within 16-17 months that he will complete it.

Pam Sandrock (51:30)

You know, I think that this is interesting because I wonder what fulfillment he's getting out of this. You know, what is this? Because fulfillment doesn't just come, we have to create it. You we have to experience things, but there's gonna be fulfillment in this. What's his driver?

Rick Barron (51:48)

You know, I don't really, I don't have ⁓ a good answer for that. I can only tell you what I'm hearing in his videos and audios. And what I've been noticing is that he is being very observant of people that he's, he's meeting. He's met a few, but also what he sees in the morning and in the evening. He says, I've never taken the time to appreciate a sunset or a sunrise.

He has said that several times and just watch him one time. He actually got a little teary-eyed when he was saying that. I think he's realizing there's so much to appreciate in your life that we just, we overlook it because we take it for granted.

Pam Sandrock (52:33)

Yeah, we're distracted by life, that we can't see it or realize it.

Rick Barron (52:35)

Yeah, totally.

Pam Sandrock (52:41)

I mean, I think our bills, like I said, the broken faucet, the roof leak that distracts us from the sunset because whatever's pulling in our attention, we focus on the negative. We focus on the things that need fixed or the things that are bothering us. And that blocks out the beauty that blocks out the smiles. And so and so he has separated his now hurt foot is stopping him right now, but he's overcoming that he's going to overcome that to get back to the sunsets and the sun rises.

Rick Barron (53:00)

Yeah. And he realized, you know, he had the, the wherewithal to where he, I figured where he was that someone helped him get to a hospital to get his foot checked out. He wasn't one of those things, but it'll, it'll fix itself. You know, he, he said, you know, in his mind, just be sensible about this. Otherwise, I won't make it. So that's where he is today, but hopefully he's going to be off another day or two and then it'll start up again.

Pam Sandrock (53:38)

That's fantastic, I'm gonna have to follow this guy. You're gonna have to send me his information and I'll keep up with him. Okay, do that.

Rick Barron (53:41)

I'll send you the link to his Instagram account. That way you'll get all of the ⁓ videos. So, with your podcasts and your writings, are you ever planning to do speeches in front of a crowd of people or?

Pam Sandrock (53:48)

You know, I think of that all the time. I do think I want to do that, but I don't feel like I'm there just yet. At this point in time, I feel like God's gonna put me where he wants me to be, and he's gonna bring me opportunities I think that are meant for me. And I'm not, I don't have any opportunities in front of me to do that right now, nor have I sought any out. Am I open to it? Absolutely, I think it'd be great. I think I have a message people would wanna hear.

Rick Barron (54:10)

Okay.

Pam Sandrock (54:31)

What I am called to though, that keeps coming back and it just won't be quiet is a book. So, I'm going to sit one day real silent and really ponder that. It just keeps popping back and things are popping up in my feeds and in my emails now that says, my gosh, maybe I should do this. Maybe I should write a book. ⁓ So I'm going to explore that a little bit. But I do think I do want to get on stage, but it's not something I'm pursuing right now explore that a little bit. I do think I do want to get on stage, but it's not.

I think it sounds fun. I think it sounds like an adventure of its own and that would contribute to my growth and I could help others, know, whoever my listeners are. It sounds like a blast.

Rick Barron (55:05)

Yeah. Well, speaking of listeners, if someone came into your website today, looking at your blog on your website, what would be the message you hope they walk away with?

Pam Sandrock (55:21)

I think my, that's a good question. I think my general message is if you get, if you win or if you get knocked down, you're not knocked out. That's the basis of what no knockouts is. It's knowing you're going to get knocked down, but commit to rise, commit to getting back up again, no matter what the situation is. I also don't want people to feel alone when they go through things because I was a silent fighter in my cancer. 

I didn't make it very public hardly at all, and I sit in silence or very quiet places to process my emotions and go through hard things, and that can feel alone. Even though I had plenty of people surrounding me, my own loved ones, it still feels alone. And so, if someone else is similar to that, if they are quiet, silent fighter, I just want them to know they're not alone in that.

And if they can develop the attitude, I'm going to commit to rise. I'm going to have better days ahead of me. Good times will come again. I want to implant that belief in people. We get through the little stuff, but when the devastating stuff hits, it gets real bleak and dark. And like you said, it took you to your feet. It knocked you down. And it did me too. And it took some time, but I was committed to rise.

Rick Barron (56:34)

Mm-hmm.

Pam Sandrock (56:44)

I remember telling myself, I am not going to live my life upset because I realized so much time had passed, days and months and even years had passed where I didn't feel like myself. And I was just done with that. It was a line in the sand where I said, I don't want to live my life upset. And it became a mindset shift of there's more to do, there's more to live for, there's years to be had, moments to be had. 

And If we can embrace the it's my turn attitude when something happens and realize you're gonna get through it, life just gets easier. It's just not as hard because it's not as devastating when you're like, crap, it's my turn, here we go, let's get this done and move on. So I think that's kind of the base of it. But I do always fall back on when times are hard for me when I'm going through something, I'm like, this isn't gonna knock me out. This is just a little speed bump. I'm gonna keep going.

Rick Barron (57:15)

We can embrace the, it's my turn at let's get this done and move on. Just like your grandmother said.

Pam Sandrock (57:46)

Absolutely. And I can't ignore the fact that that probably was a seed planted long ago from her. You know, did that contribute to me and No Knockouts? It probably did. It probably did. Thanks.

Rick Barron (57:56)

Yeah. I like that. So, I always like to finish the program on something, you know, spontaneity to it. And I provided you some questions. So, let's start off with the first one.

Do you have any hobbies or interests that make you unique or help define who you are?

Pam Sandrock (58:14)

Good one. I don't think I'm super interesting. I don't think I stand out in any way. I think if you ask my friends and family, I think they like my baking. I like to cook and bake. And if we ever have a gathering or get together, I'm usually asked to bring a dessert. So, I do that. I'm kind of known for my sweet tooth and things I can make in that genre. I think when I was younger.

Rick Barron (58:31)

Ha ha. I love it.

Pam Sandrock (58:47)

When I was in my high school and college years, I was a power lifter. I lifted heavy weights and I did back in the day. I lifted heavy weights and power lifted for come competitively in competition. And although I don't do that anymore, I do rock. Do you know what rocking is? It is you walk or hike with a weighted vest on and weighted vest are kind of a trend now, but I started these years ago back in the probably 2020 as well.

Rick Barron (58:52)

Whoa. I've never heard the term.

Pam Sandrock (59:17)

and I bought this backpack with weights that you put in the backpack. And it's just fantastic. And I go probably a couple of miles at a time, two or three times a week. And it's just walking with a weighted vest on. And I do probably more than I should sometimes, but it really just strengthens your core and your legs. It just makes you stand up straight in my opinion. And so, I still lift heavy weights. I just do it differently.

But sometimes I've seen people on the trail and they're like, are you the girl who wears the backpack? I'm like, yeah, that's me. So, I rock. I'm kind of known for that, at least in my little walking trail area.

Rick Barron (59:55)

Hahaha. I'm gonna have to do some research on that. I've never heard that term before.

Pam Sandrock (1:00:06)

Yeah, it's R-U-C-K, look it up. It's a whole thing. It's called rucking and we live in Houston. It's pretty flat here. But if I lived in a hillier area, I would like it to go up and down the hills would be even better than just walking on flat surface. But that's what I do. So, look up rucking.

Rick Barron (1:00:20)

What would you like to do if you had more time?

Pam Sandrock (1:00:28)

Well, that's an easy one for me. I'd spend more time in the country. Like I said, I grew up in a small town and my parents and much of my family is still there. So, I'd like to spend more time there or in the country. I like to fish and ATV four-wheeler through the wood’s kind of thing. Beyond creeks and ponds and lakes and that sort of thing. I like being outdoors. In the rural areas, not the concrete city areas.

Rick Barron (1:00:51)

Well, good for you. What was your first paying job?

Pam Sandrock (1:01:01)

It was with my grandfather. My paternal grandfather was a veterinarian and I worked for him during the summers all through high school. And I would scoop poop and clean kennels. And after a dog or a cat would leave, I'd sanitize the tables in the area and sweep the floors, audience our phones, file papers. I'd assist in surgeries. You know, I would sit there. That was the most fun because I got to sit and watch surgeries.

And we were in a small town, so there were large animals as well. So, we'd have cows and horses and sheep and pigs. And I'd get right in there and just assist in any way that he'd allow me too really. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Barron (1:01:42)

I love that. that's so cool. Okay, so we talked about you one day writing a book. But if your parents wrote a book about you, what do you think the title would be?

Pam Sandrock (1:01:53)

Ooh, that's a doozy. I think my parents see me as pretty competitive. I would say they would speak about my competitive nature. I think they know that I don't like a challenge. I love a challenge. I don't like to be told no. I remember my dad saying, never say never, meaning if you're challenged, don't ever think you can't do anything.

You know, and so it'd probably be something along the lines of that. Don't ever think you can't do anything. Don't let anybody tell you, you can't do anything. Just never say never. There's always possibility. Something along those lines.

Rick Barron (1:02:33)

That's great. Last question. What's the best advice you've ever received?

Pam Sandrock (1:02:36)

Okay. I'll take you right back to what my granny said. I think that's had the most impact on me. She just said, take advantage of every moment you have. Don't let time pass you by. Appreciate what you've been given and appreciate the times, good and bad, because they go by so fast.

Rick Barron (1:03:00)

Absolutely. Pam, I got to you, this conversation was a lot more than I expected. I've loved it. no, I think you are such an open book with your emotions. think that's why I encourage people who are listening and I'll provide the information how to get to your website and more so your podcast so they can hear what I have been hearing. And I think they're not going to be disappointed.

Pam Sandrock (1:03:08)

I'm so glad, Rick. This has been fun.

Rick Barron (1:03:29)

Yeah. Well, thank you for that. I appreciate the compliment and the support.

I really thank you so much. And to those who are listening, I thank you for joining our episode and we'll be talking to you soon. So, take care.