Interview #12 Shazmeen Bank – Healing Through Connection

Transcript, Apr. 22, 2025

Rick Barron (00:00.599)

Hi everyone. I am Rick Barron, your host and welcome to my podcast. That's life. I swear. My guest today is Shazmeen Bank, and she has her own podcast called Love Better. Now her podcast is all about healing and growing. Now her mission is to change lives. 

Her podcast episodes cover such areas as attachment styles, self-worth and the art of communication. Now, Shazmeen provides you a safe place to explore the messy and sometimes beautiful sides of relationships. There's no shame. There's no judgment. It's just truth and from the heart. 

Please join me as I have my conversation with the beautiful Shazmeen Bank. 

Shazmeen, welcome to the show!

Shazmeen (00:53.422)

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Rick Barron (00:57.135)

Oh gosh, I've been wanting to have our discussion ever since we had our little intro conversation. And I've been just thinking about that conversation by itself. And it was just, there was so much there to absorb. And I was really very enthusiastic after I got off the call with you. And I thought this is going to be good. So, but I was going to ask you, what, can you,

Shazmeen (01:19.192)

Yes.

Okay, so if you could Shameen you? Provide our audience kind of a little brush stroke overview of your background Or did you grow up and how did you get to this point in your life? Well, you started this podcast called love better and before you go on I want to let the audience know I've listened to almost all of her podcasts and in the word, they're beautiful. You've got to listen to them. So go ahead, please.

Shazmeen (02:12.334)

Thank you so much, Rick.

So, my journey actually began where I was 18 and I had my son at 18 years old. And when you are Indian in a country like Kenya and you're born in Nairobi, which is very small, everybody knows everybody. And I was literally getting ready to go to university, but I decided to have my son and I got married in a week. So, I missed out on formal education and

I got a PhD in motherhood though, so that's what I tell everyone. I still feel my sons taught me everything along the way in life. He's truly my joy and he's 20 now.

Because I sort of missed university, my journey began with when my son started to go to full day school. I had no idea what to do with my time. And so, I found a company that looked like they sold property, they were doing real estate, and I'd never understood what all of that was. I was 20 years old. I just wanted something to do with my time. And I literally went to see the boss and I hounded him down for six months for a job.

Shazmeen (03:27.254)

And he actually gave me a job out of resilience because he kept brushing me off and telling me, you know, call me next week. I'm really busy and then I'm traveling. Call me in a month. And I was taking that literally like, he picked my call. This is positive feedback. And when I went to see him six months later, he was like, I cannot believe you are still persisting me for a job. And I had no papers, no university degree. And everyone in the company, because it was a really big company,

I realized had formal education and brought a lot of value. So, I sort of started off in petty cash and that job grew slowly. I ended up bringing an entire marketing department to that section because I had nothing else to do but to see like how else could this company grow in this section. But I never felt fulfilled in that area even though I was growing with the company.

I sort of felt I connected a lot more to people and I was talking to the people and people would open up a lot more. So that was what I was more excited about going to work with was the connection.

And long story short, I ended up quitting my job after I got divorced. So, I was married for five years and that relationship was very, very, very turbulent. So, I left, but I left on a salary of literally $300 a month and supporting my son. It was very tough and I sort of just felt this job wasn't for me and I signed up onto his course, the Tony Robbins Madonna's training.

It was Tony Robbins at that time, which was now when I'm about 23, 24, and you just need to listen to Tony Robbins. And you're like, in an instant, you're like, my life's changed. And I had to attend his seminar. And at this point, my husband and I had started to talk a lot more and he had said, I'd support your journey, you know, go and do the seminar. And after I did the Tony Robbins seminar, that was literally it. I came back.

I was in a place where I sort of felt, and I think it's something I've still always felt, because I didn't have formal education, I felt very much I had to keep studying something. One certificate wasn't enough. I felt a little bit like I don't have a psychology or a therapist certification, so I need to know more and more and more. And that was it. 

I traveled to South Africa and I traveled to Australia and I just did multiple courses moved from mass to hypnosis to life coaching and then when I got back with my husband is when I sort of settled into relationship coaching because I realized that there was a gap and there was a way that I felt at that time I had worked to get back with my husband and I wanted to inspire and teach people a lot more.

But I feel in that journey, my biggest shift was actually 2020. I think COVID changed my life in the most beautiful way possible. I feel I was awakened. My career went in a completely different direction. 

But I also realized that there was an awakening within me and the awakening was somehow taking all this knowledge that I had and being on live TV and being on live radio and helping people live, something inside of me was always taking away at, I wanted to be someone that walked my talk and I didn't want to be someone that was giving advice or helping someone because that's what the textbooks taught me or that's the certificate allowed me to teach. I wanted to embody what I'm teaching. wanted what I'm helping people is something I live by so when I tell you to do it, I've practiced it, I've failed in it, I've got up in it, so I have faith in what I'm telling you to do.

And it was in that spin-off of COVID and post-COVID that I think a lot changed in my life.

The Love Better podcast was literally born because I was going through the hardest year of my life and coming out of that hard year, I realized there's a way we love ourselves better and then ultimately, we can love better anyone else around us. 

But it had to begin with self. And that was my journey because I felt there was such a big neglect of self in able to honor everyone else around me. And it was the first time from last year that I was able to pause and say, what do I need? What's not fitting with me? Where am I self-abandoning to keep everybody happy? And I think it was the most delicious, scary year of my life. And I sit in so much uncertainty with the way forward right now, but I am in a place where I feel so grounded and so present with the podcast and the work that I'm doing. And that's how it's all come to be. It's evolving as I evolve.

Rick Barron (09:15.727)

Wow.

That is a, that's a beautiful story. I mean, just kind of tracing back to some of the key points in that journey. it was great. 

You took that course and, then traveling from one different country to another, not knowing what direction it was going to lead you to in the end, but doing all that, at least in my mind tells me you had the self confidence that I'm going to make this happen. 

  I don't see the end of the journey yet, but I know it's over there. And I think going through those hard knocks, like you said, and I think many of us have gone through that, that only then can you really share with a real conviction and passion. 

Let me understand what you're going through, but let me share with you, I had a similar you know, situation that you can share with that individual or individuals. And there's that connection. And I think by you going through those various stages of the stress, COVID like all of us did, I mean, I think it was awakening for so many people. think it ultimately changed everyone's lives, you know, hopefully for the better. 

But I think that having gone through those hard knocks, that was your education. Because sure, some of us who have gone to universities, they only teach you what they're to teach you on the blackboard, so to speak. It's not until you get out there in real life that whatever they taught you, that's just to get you, provide you the means to survive. It's the emotions, the personalities, the ups and downs. 

And only then are you going to really get a good grasp of what life is all about and how when you get knocked down, how you get up and that's where you start going in that direction. I think your story, I think it just resonates with many people out there who will understand when they listen to this podcast, what, how they can relate to what you're saying very much so. 

Shazmeen (11:41.571)

Yeah.

Rick Barron (11:45.391)

So, when you start at the podcast, how did that all come together, how did that build? Was it just like one day I'm going to start a podcast or you just said, know, if I'm going to tell my story, this is one way to do it. mean, can you walk us through that?

Shazmeen (11:58.744)

So, I actually withdrew from social media around, I would say, 2023 because I experienced, realized, and a lot in my marriage came forth that I never thought I would experience or could happen to me, not when we've got back together for the second time and husband was living with a very heavy, dark secret. And I stayed in the marriage thinking a lot of the work was for me to put in. I think the ability to have a lot of empathy and compassion without boundaries is what I had. Because I felt when you are married, you do whatever it takes to make that work. 

So, I withdrew from social media because when I realized that I was at the peak of growing numbers, I was at the peak of, you know, in touch with what I was saying and teaching and I said I couldn't do it. There is no way I am going to connect with people when I don't feel connected to myself. I didn't know how to embody that. 

So, I pulled away and I went through, I think the darkest, truly darkest journey that I've ever been. I thought I went through a dark journey in the first few years But this was very dark, but I was very conscious To what I was going through. I was very conscious with sitting through the pain I had I enrolled in a Practitioner course at that time so that I could work through what I was going through as well as teach 

What I was going through at some point because I knew if this is what I'm going through there's no way I'm the only person but I was in this beautiful dark place where I didn't realize I had the torch and I was the light all along but you have to sort of allow that light to shine inside out and trust it.

Rick Barron (14:13.615)

Mm-hmm.  

Shazmeen (14:14.354)

And sitting in pain, sitting in discomfort, sitting in uncertainty, sitting where your world feels completely shattered, and then being in a place where my husband was not able to face what had happened, I was very unskillful in the way I was dealing with it because there was so much pain and anger. And obviously it didn't help him feeling safe enough to come out as well, which is what I see now. 

But I reached a place towards the end of last year where I made a decision. And it was a very, very, very tough decision to come to conclude at the end of 20 years. But it felt right for my soul. It felt right for my nervous system. It felt right for my son. And it was literally...it was very interesting Rick because my son flew to London to say goodbye to all his friends and I did not want to go on that trip because I was so down and so low and he was like mom this trip is going to change your life you need to get on this trip with me we're going you're going to meet all my friends you've talked to them for a year and I was just not in a space to interact with people but somehow that trip

My son has probably 7 to 8 beautiful girlfriends and I spent time talking to all 8 of these beautiful women and they had all these questions about relationships and healing and I somehow felt as I spoke to each one of them it was like I got a chance to talk to myself when I was 18 and 19 again and I felt so healing and I saw women that needed not empowerment but needed a course where they could trust themselves and not self-abandon and so it was literally when I had finished a conversation with one of these girls and I turned around and said, you know we just need to learn to love ourselves better and then we can learn to love others better. 

And I looked at my son and I'm like; I'm going to write that down. That's the name of my podcast, Love Better. It was literally on the streets of London and I was feeling grounded. I was feeling like I'm healing and I said, I feel ready to podcast again and I feel ready to get out there and share the story respectively and with kindness to my partner as well. 

We're going through a tough transition right now so it kind of feels very weird to use that name and I'm... So, we're separating. And so that was the decision I made. And it's very interesting to sit here and smile and feel courageous to talk about it, but be very close to tears as well. So, the podcast was born so that as I healed and others listened, they could heal too.

Rick Barron (17:33.337)

You said something in part when you were talking to these girls and you know, asking they were asking questions and you were giving them some insight. Just out of curiosity, when you were talking to these girls, like, you know, I guess there's a little bit of an age difference there. Did you hear things from them in their questions that you never heard of when you were their age?

I mean, I'm thinking about what these kids probably have grown up in, like maybe they grew up during COVID and that probably had an impact on them. Did they share with you why they felt, and these are my words, not satisfied with where their life was going or how would you define that? But what did you pick up on during those conversations?

Shazmeen (18:26.136)

I think something that stood out first to me that was so important was one of them asked me a question that said, how do I know that I'm in the right relationship? And I said, your nervous system will allow you to feel it.

It was in that moment that I first realized my nervous system was not feeling safe. And I turned around and also said, you have to trust your intuition because we don't talk about it enough for men and women. Your intuition is powerful. It's always talking to you. And I realized my intuition was talking and speaking to me too. But the thing I realized about this generation was what I feel our generation or a lot of the people I work with at our age, I feel that the Gen Z generation is learning at 18, 19 and 20.

We are learning these boundaries, these rules, and what we want in a relationship and how to have better relationships and attachment styles. We're learning all of that later in our lives, but this generation is so educated. They have all this knowledge at their fingertips that we didn't have unless we went to a therapist or attended a Tony Robbins seminar.

They are so smart. They want what's best for them. And they make mistakes which are very natural, but they make mistakes with lot of information as well. And so, I realized when I was talking to this generation, I was like, wow, you guys ask questions I did not think of ever asking when I was 18 or 19. 

And that comes with living with my son as well, because I look at him at 20 and I think, we're fundamentally very different because you have so much knowledge and you have the choice to implement so I see a lot of his friend group implement that knowledge and they they're in these relationships and when I advise them as 18 19-year-olds they're asking questions that clients I have at 35 or 45 asking or they're questioning things that are very similar and that's what I found very profound that they're very, very, very grown up.

Rick Barron (20:57.859)

Wow. Do you think it stems from like again, kind of using COVID as an example that I, I, at least for me, I thought during that time period, I didn't know where this was going to go. And I wonder if those teenagers, at least when you spoke with them, had that sense of, it's just how it all ends. So how do I live? How do I survive this? 

And I think through that, some of them, I think, learn more about themselves about getting through what we all had to face around the world. So, I'm sure that had to have had some impact on them. And I guess that's kind of a good segue. I think it on your podcast website; you mentioned that you create a safe place. I love that term. Could you describe that to us? What does that mean? And how did you come up with that phrase, safe place?

Shazmeen (21:55.438)

I think safe place for me stands from inside and it's being fully authentically aligned with not being in conflict with the different parts of you. Because I realized we take conflict and think conflict's only external, conflict's only what we go through with other people. 

But safe place for me was if we can create a safe place where we're not in conflict with the parts of ourselves, the parts of ourselves that we feel are wrong, some emotions are wrong, some emotions are right. But it was being able to merge both, being incongruent and comfortable with it. The places of us that want happiness and it's okay to still be sad. We want so much more in life and yet this is just where we are right now. It was being very okay with discomfort and wanting comfort.

So, merging all of that, but finding a balance inside where...there's almost a silence, there's almost a peace in knowing the decisions you make stem from justice, stem from fairness, stem from not making someone the villain, not making yourself a victim, not fighting with yourself as a victim and a villain. 

So safe place for me is truly coming within and I think fully integrating with that little inner child that you forgot, you've neglected, you've forgotten to pull along with you because they have such wisdom to still give you at this age.

They sort of have been left out without a hug and warmth and they're scared. And as we've grown and we're terrified as adults, we've forgotten that these are part of us that we have to keep coming back to, to keep ourselves whole and integrated and authentic with so much compassion.

For the mistakes we make and the parts of us that are not proud and then striving to work towards being proud of ourselves. And I feel that's creating a safe space, but it's working with the different parts of your personality and being okay with all of them being in different places and wanting different things, but having one part of you that's compassionate enough to speak to these different parts of yourself. You can speak to anger. 

You can speak to the sadness, you can speak to the pain, can speak to longing, all these different parts of you, but you ultimately bring them together and you hold space for them. And I think when you create safety within yourself, then you can create safety where people start to feel safe in your presence. They open up to you.

Rick Barron (24:48.687)

In the time that you've been doing this collectively talking to people, whether it's on your podcast or perhaps you talk with them, you know, in a private session, approximately how many years have you been doing this? And I'm going to, I'm going to ask you why I'm asking that question, but 10 years?

Shazmeen (25:09.614)

It's, I would say probably about 13 because it started with life coaching and has just progressed into more relationship attachment conflict resolution now.

Rick Barron (25:23.055)

Okay. So, during those 13 years, have you noticed any particular trends that seem to stay constant or have changed over time as you talk to people during your sessions where you talk to somebody in person, whether it's over the phone or in person. 

And, know, when you hear something that is hits in your head like, okay, this seems to be a viable topic. I need to talk about this on my podcast. What have you experienced over that timeline thus far?

Shazmeen (26:00.622)

I would honestly say it's a lack of self-worth. Yeah, because I would say every conversation, every problem is us looking for love externally, or all the problems I deal with is how someone's not loving me good enough, well enough, the way I want. I don't know what I didn't do for this person. And I've always heard the lack of self-worth because I realized when you have self-worth first of all you don't tolerate a lot that goes on in some relationships or you healthily know how to direct a relationship and work with the other person in a better way.

But I feel that word has been thrown around so much, which is you should have self-worth and self-love. But it really stems from the reason we push and pull in our relationships, because we're always looking to be loved. 

And that's where we forget to pause and say, I need to love myself first, and I need to be able to know how to love myself first and what that means in order to know how someone else could love me, otherwise I'm this big gushy wound hoping someone else could fill and the more they try to fill it as long as I've not done the work their love's never going to be enough it's not enough to fulfill that wound and that's why I feel when you work on self-worth and that's what I've picked up with so many people a lot of people that have grown self-worth and left really tough relationships and a lot of people that have grown self-worth and the relationships evolved because now the other person has respect for them in that relationship. 

It's such a beautiful twist and it just takes you to change. You don't have to come in with the other person. So, I would definitely say the pattern that I feel personally I've noticed is working on self-worth.

Rick Barron (28:02.253)

So, when you've spoken to various people about how to work on the self-worth, do you ever get any pushbacks where people say, well, no, no, no, that's not me. Why do I have to do that to gain my self-worth again? mean, have you ever had people just not buy into it or do people say, well, I never thought about it that way, but you bring up a good point. I guess it's been a balance of both.

What have you experienced?

Shazmeen (28:32.93)

Definitely a balance of both because I have some people that instantly go no no no I'm good like I self-worth have self-worth But I'm in this session trying to crave the love of somebody else because I don't know how to love myself enough to get through that relationship well, but they'll always be the resistance of no no no I'm good. 

I have self-respect I have self-worth and it's just very gently being able to show them where the relationship is their attachment style where it could stem from but it's done with a lot of empathy for the other person to feel safe enough to be able to see that there's no shame in we've never really worked on it. 

We assume that we have self-worth but all the boundaries we've let go of, all the ways in which we've loved, all the mistakes that we've made. A lot of the times it comes because we've lost that beacon. We've lost the two-degree shift on our self-worth. And it's just a matter of aligning to the self-worth of who you are today. Cause I feel it changes your self-worth on who you were when you were 18 versus everything you've gone on in life now and all the experiences. 

It changes. It's always moving direction, but you need to be aligned with the direction in which your self-worth pulls you in and you work with it, you flow with it. So, I definitely have people that will pause and cry and definitely they will feel seen for the first time that you see that and this is what I went through in my childhood and I never felt seen. 

So how could I see myself? I always felt if I wasn't seen, it was important for me to see people outside and if I saw them enough, then they will finally see me and love me. But it's when you come back into that safe space that you've created and you hold that self-worth for I'm worthy of love. If I'm worthy of love means I need to know how what does that look like in my world?

How do I get treated? How do I love somebody else when I come from a place of self-worth? So, there's some people that feel so seen and there's some people that need a little gentle push.

Rick Barron (30:43.247)

So, I guess when you're sharing all this information, just, it's remarkable because there's some things I never heard of before how you would deal with some of these, I don't know, for lack of a better word, issues with oneself. But in the time that you've been doing this, what have you learned about yourself? I mean, you talked about the deep emotions that you've been through.

And I'm not going to dive into that, but I just want to understand you're dealing with your being a strong person, which I really sense that you are. mean, you've been through so much that I can, you just feel it. And I think your expressions, your mannerisms, and you measure your words very well. So that's why I enjoy listening to what you're saying. But during that time frame, what have you learned about who you are?

Shazmeen (31:52.494)

I would say I've definitely learned and it's really funny you asked because I was talking to my son about it yesterday and I said I think I learned that I have a lot of empathy with no boundaries and that's what's led me to where I am.

I’ve always being able to understand and the ability because of the hypervigilance to foresee where someone is stuck and want to just meet them not halfway but where they are taking it over nurture rescue save guide lead and in doing all of that I realized I completely forgot myself

I lost the compass for myself, but I feel empathy is such a beautiful thing to have when there are boundaries in the way you have empathy, meaning there's nothing wrong with having empathy and saying, but I still choose to stay away from hurtful behavior. 

I came from a place of if you have empathy, you tolerate everything. That's compassion, but it's not because I had no compassion, empathy for myself. So, I think the biggest place I sit is I understand why people do the things they do. I don't have to tarnish or make them wrong, even though I did. I did do that.

But I worked to a place where I was able, part of the, one of the courses I did was able to hold room for the pain someone has inside of them to cause you pain. And it's never intentional. It's a spillover of their pain and your proximity to their pain, and it's going to affect you. 

And when that gets too strong, you can turn around and say, I will love you, but I cannot be close to this sort of behavior because it hurts me. And I think that's where I am now. Empathy to holding room for someone and they are no longer the villain in my story. I am not the victim. We just both coexist with an experience and a lot of emotional love goes into that. Not leading with the mind, not leading with the head, but stepping down into vulnerability and that is unbelievably scary. And I think one of the people I love the most that put it the best way was Gabor Matej because he says vulnerability is like walking around with an open wound.

Meaning you could be vulnerable and you never have the certainty somebody won't hurt you. Yet vulnerability allows you to step into a place where you're authentic enough to be strong enough to make the right decisions for you without villainizing someone else in that decision. I think that's when you sort of have harmony in disharmony.

Rick Barron (34:58.063)

No, makes that makes good sense. You talked about, I know, well, was during our first conversation or maybe I saw it on your website, but you talk about how So, our attachment styles shape us and in our relationships. And I kept reading the words attachment styles. I thought, what could that be? I mean, that was just I kept thinking about that. I have to ask her that question.

What does that mean? How do you define that?

Shazmeen (35:30.766)

I think, first, think attachment styles, if you're about to learn about it, is probably going to be life-changing for not only yourself but your relationship. 

Because it literally, I've had people when I've explained attachment styles to, they look at their partner or they sit in that moment and they go, that's why I do what I do. That's why I think this way. That's why we are where we are. And it's so profoundly beautiful because when you learn what your attachment styles are in a relationship, it sort of gives very clear direction to that relationship and now the work that can go into it. So, there are four types of attachment style. There's secure attachment style. There's anxiously attached. There's fearful avoidance and dismissive avoidant.

When you are, it's all formed, believe it or not, between the ages of zero and two. Your attachment style and who you're going to be in your adult relationship is formed between you and your caregiver or you and a parent between the ages of zero and two years old and the way that your caregiver parent responded to you in those ages. 

So, people who are more securely attached are people who really had caregivers that could see them, that nurtured them that responded to their cues when they needed. These babies or these toddlers felt so seen, they felt safe, they felt I can cry and my parent will respond to me. They will attend to whatever it is I need. And so, they have the ability to behave how they want, be the babies, be the children they are and they will get seen the way that they should be seen.

Shazmeen (37:24.23)

And you have anxiously attached children who sort of went through my parent is there and then they're not. Love doesn't feel so consistent. And that could be because probably a parent is working or the parent is very busy and the child sort of looks to the parent to say, I want your love. And then it's given. And then next time the child wants the love, the parent isn't around or isn't emotionally available to do so. 

And the child sort of grows up with this wound that says so I have to do something to get love because love was given easy Then I had to smile laugh giggle or do something to get my parents to see me or cry and then they did but then there were times that they didn't so loves very inconsistent and anxiously attached person doesn't know when they will get love so, they always have this fear love will leave, it won't last. And they grow up with this wound that says, have to do so much to get love. 

And then you have fearful avoidance. And a fearful avoidant literally grows up with a parent that...is very much there. They are not violent. They're not abusive. But the parent really sort of puts them on a pedestal to be, you're competent enough to do this. They sort of raise the child to be very independent. You got this. You don't really need me. I have one or many clients that will turn around and say, but my parents were not mean. They, you know, they were not so, present. I think I had a great childhood. 

But when you work with a fearful avoidant, they realize little patterns like in my day and age, I grew up where I would get smacked in school. And then when I went home thinking, I'm going to go tell my parent this is what happened, they would probably smack me or shout at me and say, get over that, it's time to get ready, we need to get to dinner.

Shazmeen (39:20.69)

And so, this child doesn't grow up learning emotions are important. The parent really didn't sit down to work through emotions. They saw conflict happen, but it's probably buried under the carpet. There's no positive resolution, no positive repair. They grow up extremely independent and feeling, I need to be very charming and I have to wear a mask in order to be seen and loved. 

So, they never really wear their heart on their sleeve without the ability that if someone does see that heart on my sleeve, I will run away, I'll withdraw, I'll pull away. Whereas an anxious person is very much, my hearts on my sleeve, in fact, I will give you my heart if it means I will get love. I will self-abandon my hobbies, my career, anything. I will always put you first. They're always chasing love. 

And the fearful avoidant pretty much grows up feeling, I can't really trust love. Because I had parents who were great or it could have been with a sibling that when I needed love, it never sort of clicked emotionally. I had to rely on myself and who teaches a toddler child to emotionally be there for themselves. So, they really grow up so deeply lonely. They truly want and crave deep relationships. In the beginning, which is phase one of a relationship, which is a romance phase, they show up as their best selves. Charming, grandiose, wonderful. And in the beginning, you don't need to do a lot to be loved.

You could sneeze the wrong way and someone thinks it's the most beautiful thing they've seen. But later on in the relationship, and suddenly now when you need more intimacy, you need deeper connection, a fearful avoidant would be, well, in the beginning, I wasn't doing a lot and you saw me and you loved me for who I am. Why now do you need more from me?

Shazmeen (41:23.784)

And you'll have somebody anxiously attached who's always going for the throat. They could meet you, you could end up being the one and an anxiously attached person's thinking, okay, wait, could this be the love of my life? Should we be discussing marriage? I love you; I could spend the rest of my life with you. I will give up all my time. I will cancel plans to be able to be with you. Anxiously attached people lose their autonomy to be in a relationship. Fearful avoidance holds onto an autonomy and try not to get too involved in the relationship. That's why there's a disconnect.

And then you have the fourth style, is dismissive avoidance. Now, dismissive avoidance grew up with parents that could have been sexually abusive. They could have been alcoholics. They were parents that literally would tell the child, stop it, don't cry, be tough. What's wrong with you? They never grew up with the warmth of emotional love. 

They never grew up being held. And then there were times, for example, so let's say we have an alcoholic parent and the parent is in the worst stage of going through that. They will push the child away, they'll scream at the child, the child learns I have to take care of my parent or I have to find a way to take care of myself or my siblings and then maybe let's say the parent feels really bad about what they're doing and says I want to stop drinking and I want to be able to sober down. In this phase they love on the dismissive avoidant child. 

Now the child's seeing love, they're seeing the parent being tentative, they're sort of getting a bit of the parental love that they always craved but didn't really know now was even missing. So, it confuses them. So, the love is taken away, then the love comes back. And then maybe the parent, you know, decides this is not something I can work up and like any addiction goes back into it. And now you confuse the child again. 

So dismissive children grow up with putting a foot in the water and tapping it out. That's what it feels like in a relationship. You never quite have them. You never sort of feel deeply connected to them. They are the kind of people in a relationship that want independence as they come into that relationship. 

And when they break up, they're the people who finally breathe out and say, get my independence back. I get my freedom back. I don't want to be with somebody so clingy. I don't know why love is so much. And it's because that's how they grew up feeling. I fulfill all my needs. I can self-sustained myself.

I don't understand why you can't be equally independent.

But we never experience things like that in the romance phase. So when you start to attach, understand your attachment style, and it's so much deeper than what I'm saying right now, but it sort of gives a breath out to people struggling in a relationship because you suddenly now have compassion and empathy to understand how your partner grew up, how they relate to love, how it's not their fault as a child, but they're expected as this adult to be this perfect lover, this perfect best friend, this perfect listener, you're expected to be the village to this one person's needs. And we miss that avoidance, never know how to fulfill their own needs.

Shazmeen (44:52.792)

They're always busy. They're busy being grandiose outside of the relationship. So, they're great at business. They're great at hobbies. They're great at anything that gives instant gratification. They cannot take criticism. And that's where a lot of the clashes happen with an anxiously attached and avoidantly attached. Because the anxious sort of holds a lot of room and depth for the mistakes of the avoidant.

But when they build up the resentment and now it's time to tell you how they feel, that doesn't come across very graceful. And they can do it very gracefully in the beginning. They can be very soft with, I'd really love if you did this, I'd love if you did more of this, but anxiously attached people are always on eggshells in the relationship. They're trying to behave. They're trying not to rock the boat. They don't want to be too much. They don't want to upset a partner. They're very hyper-vigilant to their partner and not themselves.

Avoidance, if you bring both of them yet, both are very separate, sort of avoid the intimate relationships. So, they want love, fearful avoidance, want love, they crave it, but they just can't understand why do I do what I do? I love my partner. Why do I withdraw? Why do I demand this space? Why do I shut down in conflict? I talk to myself that the next time we have this conversation, I'm showing up, I'm going to be open but yet there are patterns that show up. so, attachment style, I feel is the poof to relationships. 

It just finally lets you go, myself and my partner and then takes you to the next step of can we work the dynamic both of us together? Can we merge attachment styles and learn new patterns to grow into secure? It's not a disorder, it's just a pattern, a blueprint you both have that now you shed light on and you say, right, I love you enough to work on this, so let's work on it together to be able to move into how secure people work through relationships because secure people are boring.

They are everyone's friend. They're always the good guy. They are the people that show up the way they show up. They don't play the games. They don't leave double ticks. You know, they want you in a relationship. They'll let you know. They want to pursue it. They want to commit. There's no confusion with somebody that's secure. They go for what they want, but they make mistakes. You have natural disagreements, natural conflicts, but it's workable. 

There's a way to solve it versus the anxious and avoidant never really solve their problems their dire need for connection has them sweep a lot of their problems under the carpet to just come back and breathe together so attachment style it is so wide

Rick Barron (47:59.986)

Well, you kind of beat me to the punch here because I was thinking to myself, is there such a thing where two people with different attachment styles can make a marriage work? I'm going to answer my own question thinking marriage does require work. You have to give a little and take a little. 

But by the same token, I think you called it out very well in that  you know, your spouse comes from a different background than what you grew up with. So obviously there's going to be those tangibles that made the attraction strong enough to say, you know, I want to spend the rest of my life with you. And I remember my father telling me one time that if you and your wife don't ever argue, you don't love one another. And I, for the longest time, I thought, what does he mean by that? And then slowly began to hit me.

I said, no, I get it. No, I get it. Because I think that's the hard part where even if it's just a simple relationship versus marriage, I think people are caught up with the, like you just say, putting on your best face, making the best impressions. And we'll deal with all the gobbledygook after we get married. No, it's best that you find out now. 

But no, I mean, that's a very...I never would have thought of it. I mean, there's so many options that you have to think of and consider in that mode. What do you think is the biggest communication mistake people make with themselves and relationships? And maybe you touched upon it, but if there was one or two things that come to mind, what do you think that might be and how?

What would you recommend as to how people can, well, let's sit down and talk about this?

Shazmeen (50:02.498)

very powerful. I would say the best way first is to hold room for your pain but also room for why the person's doing the thing that hurts you but look at it with positive intention because very often we say if someone behaves the way they do, they're selfish, they're out to hurt me, they're the bad guy which means if they're the bad guy I'm the good person. That's how it works. But I say the one mistake we make is making the person we love the enemy when that's never been their intention.

Even when someone hurts you, even with infidelity, it stems from their pain and their wounds and your proximity to their pain and their wounds. And a lot of people will say, well, if you loved me, you would have never hurt me that way. But it's being able to come down to say, if you look at and you do the work enough, this person's intention was never to hurt you. They are hurt themselves. 

So, I would say the best way to communicate is find a way that you can talk about what you need or what your grievance is without making the other person feel like they're going to go into defensive mode. Because never has it happened that we will turn around to someone and say, do you know you hurt me this way? You did this and you did that and you talked to me this way. And someone will sit there and go, please tell me more.

You will always have the other person defend, that's not what I was doing, that's not what I meant. And what they're trying to say was, okay, clearly, I caused you pain, but that wasn't my intention. So, let's see that the intention to hurt me wasn't there. So, let's take that out. So effective communication would be, I know you had no intention to ever cause the amount of pain that you have but it has left me hurting and I know that's not what you wanted.

But I am hurting. How can we have this conversation in a way that I can feel space to discuss my pain while allowing you the space to be open and present? And then it's you being able to have that conversation, keeping them not feeling defensive, but feeling open to non-attack. 

So, it's using very much, I feel, not you did.

I feel hurt. I feel I'm wounded. I feel I'm in a place in my life. Not, you've put me in a place in my life. Because our instant reaction and breakdown in communication is the other person always wanting to defend their very good intention. And I think one of the things we've forgotten in communication is not to focus and talk from conflict mind but to be able to really vulnerably speak from the heart which means then you have to speak emotional experience which we're not trained at, we're not good at doing. Emotional experience leaves you vulnerable and open.

So, one of the things I've seen in communication breakdown is people build up a lot, they hold up a lot of resentment, and then it comes out as I need you to understand what you have done wrong to me. Whereas in very much the other person is not going to sit there and listen to what they've done wrong to you. But I have seen people sit and listen when they're not the villain in the story anymore. 

Now they want to be a part of helping you understand or listening to what your pain could have been. But then that's again now when you work attachment styles into communication because avoidance need breaks. They take any sadness that you're feeling in a relationship personally as their fault and they immediately go, I failed.

So, dismiss avoidance are, me get out. And avoidant is, let me hide, pull away, get busier at work. And it's not because I don't love you. It's just, I seem to keep upsetting you every time I get into proximity and closeness with you. So, I'm just going to sort of withdraw and love you from a little afar because then that way I don't lose you and I don't keep messing up.

And you have the other person gunning for them saying, how are you pulling away? How are you not part of this relationship? They so much disconnect. Whereas then it's just two people who are trying to love each other without causing more chaos. And that's the communication breakdown is we forget to tap into more vulnerable, expressive, heartfelt ways to say what we want to say without hurting the other person, but creating room for their pain.

And also, being very accountable to the pain we bring other people to. Cause there are a lot of people when I had to do the work last year and I had to, you know, I was very much in the list of all the pain that was caused to me and very communicative about the pain that was caused to me. 

But when I sat down with my coach to be able to do the work in conflict repair, I first, it was a very big pill to swallow on, wow, how I'm causing pain. How my communication causes withdrawal, how my communication doesn't allow for safety or openness. It's all accusation and it's all pain, but it's unskillfully coming out. So, it was being able to validate my pain and say, this pain doesn't have to rush away.

Shazmeen (55:38.762)

I can validate and turn around and course you're hurt. Of course that doesn't feel right. And of course they didn't intend for that. And of course they are in pain too. Because we almost feel if I'm in pain, you can't be in pain. You cause my pain. You don't get to be in pain. How dare you're in pain at the same time. But they're in pain causing you the pain. They're in pain wondering why they've done what they've done in the first place. 

And I see that with a lot of couples and infidelity where someone's really the person that's betrayed you really sits in the grief but they can't go deeper enough because no one's taught us to deal with guilt and shame. It's emotions we just we don't sink into we bounce off.

And because of that, a lot of relationships fail because you don't have the vulnerability to sit with guilt, sit with shame and understand it's a part of you. There's nothing wrong with those emotions. They are so beautifully going to guide you to connect with your partner.

Rick Barron (56:43.343)

So, when you talk to various couples, have your, I'm assuming you have come into a situation where one person just climbs up, they don't say a word, but the other one's doing all the talking. And it's like, you look at that person who's silent. It's like, you know, it's a two-way street, two-way street here in order for us to really have a very productive talk. need you to, to participate.

And when you have that type of scenario, how do you encourage that person to open up, to kind of get the flow of the conversation more productive in the direction that I'm sure the couple want to go into, because they want that relationship to work. How do you approach that type of situation?        

Shazmeen (57:38.446)

That's such a beautiful question because first I will always notice who has more strength in the relationship to be able to lead the other one out. And so very early in the session I'll be able to see this one's a lot more wounded so I can understand they'll need more space to hold the grief but no one's going to be able to do that unless I can equip this partner and you know, show them that there's a safe space for them to grow and work on their strengths first. 

So, a lot of the times in my session, one of the partners will feel, but I'm the one hurt, they cheated on me, or I'm at this point in the relationship because of them, why are we suddenly focused on them?

And what I'll do is I get the other person in a very beautiful stance, because I'll have them both do maybe a five, six-minute connection, meditation to calm everything down and get the tone set for the session. And I will have one person really get to know their partner again. 

So, I will ask questions about how they grew up, and I will let the other partner suddenly see them for the human that they are, not the glasses that are on right now, which is my justice matters. It does. But if I don't equip your partner with the ability to hold space for you, you're going to still feel unbelievably unseen. So very quick, I'll pick that partner and I will take them through their childhood. 

And I'll do it in a very humane way where I get them to start seeing the things that have hurt them, get them to open up, get to understand why they could have possibly done or tap into the results of what have come out in the relationship while the other partner is now building empathy again to be able to say, I didn't know you went through that. We've been married all these years. You never told me about that experience. 

And it's very interesting because it's only last week with the example I shared with you that I had this client who turned around and said, I got beaten in school and my hands were so swollen and when I went home to show them to my mom.

On that particular day the car was home early when I woke home from school and I was so excited that I'm in pain, my hands are swollen and I remember thinking my parents are home and I'm going to show them what happened and everything's going to feel better and when he did his mother shouted at him and said he was late to have a shower and show up for dinner and they had to leave.

And he says when he thought about that in the session, he realized it was one of the moments he turned around and said, I have to be strong for myself and I'm never letting love in because when I thought I was going to get love, I felt rejected. And his wife softened because she was like, you never told me that.

Rick Barron (01:00:21.743)

Wow.

Shazmeen (01:00:46.808)

And his wife softened because she was like, you never told me that. But because we don't sit with each other in spaces like that anymore to talk. So that's how I would work that couple to build up communication. It's not something that would come just in the first session. 

In the first session, I would teach them how we operate from our minds and it's easy to operate from conflict mind and what the heart operates with but it's a journey to slowly be able to get them to a point where they can communicate at the end of that and say, this is what I would like from the relationship, but I also want you to feel a certain way. So how do we go about me achieving this while you also feeling a part of it and feeling fulfilled in it? So, it's not, I want this and you don't do it.

Rick Barron (01:01:37.387)

I don't see how you do this. This takes a true talent. I wanted to ask you this question. Was I going with this? This lost my train of thought. If there was one thing in this discussion that you would want people to walk away with, to think about, or just have an understanding of what encompassed in this conversation, what might that be?

Shazmeen (01:02:13.152)

I would say tap into pain.

Sit with pain and face pain and tap into pain because I feel nothing can break you more open and awaken you more than dealing with the things you've buried within yourself. 

Nothing can make you stronger and more grounded and give you more certainty about your capabilities and ability in very uncertain times than being very comfortable with the ugliness of pain. That's what I would tell people. Don't run away and be okay with starting again but starting from a place you truly know yourself. And that's I know my self-worth. 

I'm not going to be scared to hold boundaries again. I'm going to take my time. I'm going to trust intuition and I'm never going to ignore that sixth sense I have within me. But the things that I want outside in the relationships and the things I want outside in life, it all lays with me finding myself first and I'm only going to be able to do that if I can crack through myself.

Rick Barron (01:03:33.519)

No, those are beautiful words. I, this conversation with you has been an eye opener for me. I got to tell you, um, and I'm going to call it out now. I would love to talk with you again in the very near future. Just there. Your conversation just, I was taking some copious notes here as you were talking. I thought I got to ask her about this. I got to ask her about that. 

But I think you have shared with the audience, not the simplistic ways of how to look at what you can do, but by the same token, think you just said it, deal with pain and don't be afraid of what you are going to hear because just hearing what may get you angry may be what will save you. You just don't know it. And until you really sit down and hear one another out, will you truly then understand as you said,

Wow, I never knew that happened to you. I mean, that right there, I think really pinpoints how communications and lasting relationships can endure. mean, its sure marriage, it can be so delightful and beautiful and sometimes it can be very difficult.

Anyway, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. This was just a remarkable conversation and I mean, I meant what I said, I want to talk to you again in the very near future. So, I would love that. And you can pick the topic. So, I'm going to say to my audience today, I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. And I will provide you all the information on how you can get in touch with Shazam and please listen to her web, her podcast. I'll provide the link.

Shazmeen (01:05:06.774)

Love that, Rick.

Rick Barron (01:05:30.399)

And as I said at the very outset, I started to listen to one, then listen to another, and I spent the better part of the day just to go through all of them. There's meaning in all of them. And I'm not just saying that. You have to listen to what Shazmeen has to tell you because, as she said, there's a lot of love there. 

Just know, there's no questioning of people's values or whatever. It's just honesty. So please once you can get a hold of this podcast, go to the link and listen to it. So, with that said, I want to thank Shazmeen for this beautiful moment to speak with you. And to that, I wish you well, and we will talk to you guys soon. Take care.